sailingfun

The last fleet plan had 3 767ER aircraft being converted to domestic seating in 2017 to replace 300's being parked. This would leave a total of 7 767 airframes with domestic interiors.

Pineapple Guy

DAL 88, if true, every international flight is unsafe, in your mind. I can't go that far.

I believe in simple human nature. Many pilots, but certainly not all, in my opinion, when scheduled for a trip with an expectation of 5 hours of sleep will say, "that's enough to fly a short leg back"; whereas on international, these same pilots will say 2 hours in a rest seat is NOT enough, therefore I'll take a nap before the trip.

And for many of these, 5 may be enough, until a mechanical or weather shortens it to something substantially less. I'll withhold my opinion until I see the protections in the LOA regarding IROPS, but if the rumor that it can be as little as 3 hours, I have grave concerns.

Sometimes, the purpose of the union is to protect us from ourselves...

DALMD88FO

I guess we are a national union only when we want, I didn't know we had separate DALPA by laws, I looked up the ALPA bylaws

scambo1

I think you're right...on both counts.

I also think generally you're right about the augmented turns being used in Asia. It'll make Palau less desireable. There are guys that like the inefficiency of that trip.

I'm a little like FTB on the cdo issue too, not afraid of it...but since it doesn't (and won't) affect me, I'm staying out of the argument. Fwiw, by far, the most tired I've ever been is flying Deep South America. Can't drive home tired. There's no way I'd be that wiped on a cdo. Kept them on my avoid and only flew them as GSs. It's been 6 years and I still remember how exhausting they were.

tsquare

Really? Scenario: 22:00 show for 23:00 go. Delayed 3 hours. Actually depart 02:00. Next morning show 05:30 for a 06:00 2 hour flight. PErfectly legal under a CDO operation... but NOT under a split duty situation. Completely different animals.

I am fatigued just thinking about that one.

But like you, my category won't be affected.... much.

I went on EasyBid and sorted the flights that had potential for a CDO if rebuilt. There are zero in the NY 7ER that had this potential at all. I think some of you -88/717/737/baby bus drivers could do the same thing and come up with a ball park number for the amount of your flying that could potentially be a CDO.

As to the transcon with 3 guys and a rest facility. 1 question comes to mind. On a 6 hour flight, how good would the rest really be? I know it is sometimes ridiculous on the JFK DUB flights to get 1+15 in the rest seat. Doing it twice doesn't seem like that will be restful at all to me. But I am sure they will go senior since they will be productive. Thoughts?

tsquare

This is my concern as well. I talked to 2 regional guys last night about these and both were incredulous that we would even consider them.

They aren't protecting us if they propose a situation where we could easily get into a fatigued situation. Saying that we have the "fatigued" card to play is an abysmal solution imho. There is no way that this rest period should be allowed to be reduced to under the 6 hours. Scheduled is minimum, imho. If it is too onerous on the company, well too bad. Ops needs to grow a backbone and tell marketing to send the evening flight a couple of hours sooner... for safety reasons. How many of our HVCs want to wait to go ATL-RIC at 11pm anyway?

I have a philosophy when I make a decision as a captain and it has served me fairly well. "It might be legal, but is it smart?" This is not smart, policy wise. Sorry.

And as an added thought, I would really like someone to explain the "science" behind this decision.

scambo1

T,
I think you are incorrect in the illegality of your example. You can't reduce the rest and irops of your magnitude destroys the cdo. Someone gets a green slip or reroute in that example.

On the short intl...less than 8 hours where you have an augmented crew, I sometimes just give my break away so the other 2 guys get a real break...Depends on whose flying.

Pineapple Guy

Pretty bad when two of us, both considered ALPA kool-aid drinkers, have strong reservations about this particular issue.

Pineapple Guy

DAL88, the reality is, and always has been, that we are a national union only with respect to Government Affairs and Safety. For everything else, National is simply a resource of experts in every aspect of our PWA, but we make the decisions at the local level.

That's what makes the DPA effort such a failure. They don't understand that. If they were to be put in charge, the net effect is we'd have most of the same guys step up to do the work, but without the National expertise, and without the National clout in Washington. Plus, we would have just whacked the beehive of the regional pilots, and nothing will unite them against us better than DPA.

Let's keep what we have, and at least maintain some semblance of being on the same side as the RJ guys; all wanting more pay and more time off.

dc10guy

At NWA they built them into the middle of 5day trips on occasion. Never like them. Did a lot on reserve. They did not always go senior. At another company, they went junior also. Very fatiguing after 2 to 3 in a row. More hotels for commuters to pay for in base between CDO's.