Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
What did COD stand for? Will we come up with a new name/acronym?
I did a few on the DC-9 years ago when on reserve and hated them. But, I was always amazed how senior everyone but me was on the %$&n things.
But, I think I do them all the time now.........I takeoff, fly for 3 to 4 hours, go to a bunk and sleep for 2ish hours and go back up to fly for 3 to 4 hours. (followed by a long bus ride to a nap, dinner, and back to bed)
Like several guys have pointed out, one man's trash..........
I did a few on the DC-9 years ago when on reserve and hated them. But, I was always amazed how senior everyone but me was on the %$&n things.
But, I think I do them all the time now.........I takeoff, fly for 3 to 4 hours, go to a bunk and sleep for 2ish hours and go back up to fly for 3 to 4 hours. (followed by a long bus ride to a nap, dinner, and back to bed)
Like several guys have pointed out, one man's trash..........
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Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Cockpit speaker volume knob set to eleven.
Posts: 1,410
Chairman's letter says 7:30 guarantee for CDO. Do 3 of them for 22:30 credit VS a 3 day 30 hour layover trip worth 15 or so. Don't see less manning coming out of that but again need to see the details and restrictions. Put me down for memrat.
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,590
It's going to take a while to properly digest this, once we have the facts (and we MUST get the facts before a vote takes place), but in any analysis we need to look at the most horrid "frankenstein" trip. Also: don't look at augmented and CDO as separate issue. Don't assume CDO's go back to where they started. Don't assume they represent the start and end of a rotation. And don't think about rotations in the traditional way.
Imagine a NYC rotation where leg 1 is augmenting 2 LA guys going home on a turn, short layover, CDO, end up on the East Coast, then fly with 1 pilot West, and finish a "turn" home augmented with a LA guy on the first leg of his rotation (last leg of yours).
Did I just accidentally think of a way to negate Alan and Sailing's math, or am I way off? Do you have to be augmented on the entire time if going > 9 hours, or just the time above 9 hours?
Imagine a NYC rotation where leg 1 is augmenting 2 LA guys going home on a turn, short layover, CDO, end up on the East Coast, then fly with 1 pilot West, and finish a "turn" home augmented with a LA guy on the first leg of his rotation (last leg of yours).
Did I just accidentally think of a way to negate Alan and Sailing's math, or am I way off? Do you have to be augmented on the entire time if going > 9 hours, or just the time above 9 hours?
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
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If you do 3 CDOs isn't that 6 days then? Paying 22:30?
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Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Cockpit speaker volume knob set to eleven.
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I was serious in my question to 88Driver. He was accusing me and my fellow pilots of failing to act responsibly and/or comply with the FARs regarding fitness for duty unless we are somehow prevented from doing so by the FAR.
The point of the question was to ask him just how far he thought that should go. As out there as it sounds, there have been those in the past who have advocated exactly such a scenario regarding the policing of every pilot's actions prior to report. My view is that we are all big boys who do not need the the gubmint to lead us by the wrist to do the right thing.
His mileage has clearly varied.
The point of the question was to ask him just how far he thought that should go. As out there as it sounds, there have been those in the past who have advocated exactly such a scenario regarding the policing of every pilot's actions prior to report. My view is that we are all big boys who do not need the the gubmint to lead us by the wrist to do the right thing.
His mileage has clearly varied.
Typical DALPA political strategy of attacking the integrity of the messenger instead of debating the actual points. You should be ashamed.
If you think that most pilots assigned CDO's are going to sleep 8 hours during the day in preparation then you are incredibly naive. As I've stated several times before, that's NOT what happens. The track record is very clear on this. Therefore, the way MOST pilots do CDO's IS unsafe. That flight in the early morning is being operated the vast majority of the time by a sleep deprived (fatigued) crew. You're not going to see me or my family on one of those flights, and I will not accept a trip like that because I could not sign the release for the morning flight signifying that I and my crew are properly rested.
I'm not generally a fan of "gubmint" being involved in our lives to much of an extent at all. But where do you draw the line? We need to have some kind of rules about how much rest we have to get, don't we? Or are you suggesting that they do away with FAR 117 and any other regulations that would mandate rest requirements and just rely on everybody to do the right thing and show up for their trips rested? Every man for himself... it's the wild, wild west for airline pilot scheduling. Give the airlines Carte Blanche to schedule us however they want to and leave it to the individual to use the fatigue card when necessary. No rules. Is that what you think should happen?
Last edited by DAL 88 Driver; 05-18-2014 at 03:26 PM.
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
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Setting CDO's aside for a second. I admittedly don't have the augmentation rules open in front of me, but what's to stop them from doing augmented transcon turns into redeyes?
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 463
I was discussing with a friend that if we do approve the CDO's, I wouldn't be surprised to see any MX issues pushed off onto the last departures, ie; the CDO's, via aircraft swaps in order to maintain schedule integrity throughout the day. In other words, you show up for your CDO, and MX has a red tag on the plane and gives you a ready time 3 hours later...
The six hour scheduled behind the door could be a rarity in that case. We really need to see the language and decide if there are enough protections to keep the operation realistic and safe.
The six hour scheduled behind the door could be a rarity in that case. We really need to see the language and decide if there are enough protections to keep the operation realistic and safe.
After a delayed departure the WX caused them to hold and go missed approach back to the departure point. The company wanted him and his crew to then launch again at 4AM to try the whole thing again (going into Jackson Hole with mountains on all sides none the less). He called in fatigued. He was suspended by the chief pilot. This fiasco later lead to him being fired (after being accused of writing defamatory words about the chief pilot on a company bulletin board). He spent his retirement money to sue and a four years later fortunately prevailed.
In this case the company pushed for pilots to fly the mission but then went after the pilots for reporting to work as not fit for duty. Damned if you do....
The calling in fatigued/sick thing is never as simple as some on here make it sound. The companies implementation of sick verification was geared toward keeping people flying, not wanting to have to do a carpet dance. If you think it's for any other purpose you are not being honest with yourself.
My opinion, if DALPA pushes and sells the CDO activity (that can and will be assigned to some pilots who will not have a choice....regardless of the speculation they will all go "senior"), they do not have a leg to stand on going forward regarding safety.
"At the start of his shift on Wednesday, March 23, 2005, Douglas met with First Officer Troy Brewer, who told him that he was tired because of lack of sleep, and Flight Attendant Brandee Black, who said she had strep throat and had to stop taking her arthritis medication because of the antibiotics she was taking.5 The normal departure time for Jackson Hole was delayed for one hour or so, and snow storms were blanketing the area. Nearing Jackson Hole, the plane could not land because of the inclement weather, was forced to circle for an hour, and then had to return to Salt Lake City, arriving around midnight."
"There, Douglas was told that he and his crew were scheduled for a 4:00 a.m. flight back to Jackson Hole and then a return.7 Douglas testified that he unexpectedly found himself feeling unwell, "just physically and mentally drained" from the previous three hours, and concluded that he and his crew would be physically incapable of attempting another flight to Jackson Hole after just a few hours' rest.8 He called the crew scheduling office to report that he and his crew were unfit and told System Chief Jim Breeze that they would not be able to complete the later flight safely. The 4:00 a.m. flight was canceled."
"Breeze informed Tony Fizer about this fact. Fizer was SkyWest's Regional Chief Pilot in Salt Lake City. Fizer called Douglas, who explained that he had made the safest decision in declaring himself and the crew unfit.9 Fizer asked Douglas to complete an Irregular Operations Report and meet with him the next day. In the report, Douglas mentioned his recent surgery and his surgeon's post-surgery recommendations.10 Fizer imposed discipline—a week's suspension without pay and a counseling statement in his record—because Douglas showed up to work "not fit for duty" and released his crew members during the shift."
Douglas v. Skywest Airlines, Inc., ARB Nos. 08-070, 08-074, ALJ No. 2006-AIR-14 (ARB Sept. 30, 2009)
Last edited by EdGrimley; 05-18-2014 at 03:48 PM.
I do understand what you're saying -- I'm disagreeing with you. CDO's were analyzed under the same scientific process as the rest of the FARs. Whoever designed and ran these studies determined that extended WOCL flying could be done safely if an appropriate sleep opportunity was provided during the duty period, a limit was placed on consecutive CDO's, and normal rest was provided between them.
Science.... ygtbsm. This is all about politics.
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