newKnow

Ok. I just read the Chairmans letter. What's funny to me is that, unless I missed it in all the acronyms, it doesn't mention what the agreed upon solution is to what started this whole mess to begin with. Ie. When does a long call pilot have to acknowledge a trip.

If it's as everyone suggest's, and reserve pilots don't have to acknowledge trips, then why did we get all these "improvements?"

Ok, it's true. I'm being HIGHLY skeptical, but follow me.

On January 1st, the company and ALPA were at odds. Back then, the worst the company could do is allow pilots to acknowledge trips prior to 3 hours before report time, as opposed to what they wanted (10 hours).

Why is the company now allowing us to not to report at all and still giving us all this "stuff?" Am I to believe that we are going to get better than our original position without unnecessary givebacks?

From the company's standpoint, wouldn't they have done better if on January 1st, they had just said "Ok. You win. Acknowledgment 3 hours prior to report is just fine." and not given us these "improvements?"

To me it seems like I go into a car dealership and offer to pay $7,000 for a car that has a $10,000 price tag on it. Then the salesman counter-offers to sell it to me for $5,000 and a list of other things that have nothing to do with the car. I'd be skeptical that he didn't just take my $7,000. Wouldn't you?

Am I missing something?

80ktsClamp

Overall agreed, Scoop. Very well put.

I have experience with them at the regional level (the ones proposed here pay double what my regional paid and more than NW paid), so there is some experience. These are more limited than they were at NW and of course the regional I came from... but we have to weigh out the "is it worth it?"

That comes with the language being made available to us, of course.

80ktsClamp

Our current contract requires an acknowledgement. That was a problem with the new FARs as it didn't give the 10 hours of available rest availability prior to sign in. This eliminates the LC acknowledgement requirements. If I understand it right, it's basically a loophole around the new FARs to return us to a slightly better state than we were before Jan 1.

newKnow

Ok. It just doesn't make good negotiating sense to me. From the company's perspective.


Maybe I'll "get it" tomorrow.

80ktsClamp

Add in CDOs allowed to any extent and I get it.

PilotFrog

I still don't understand how the company would be able to plan if we don't have to let them know that we get the message that we have a trip. Line holders still acknowledge they have been assigned trips albeit the onto prior when your schedule, comes out, but you do acknowledge it.
The 10 am start is a huge loss. Now we can't start before 12 on anything, sc or lc. Also we are not going from 10 to 13 hrs. If you allow that then you are allowing that SDs memo is our contract and he can change it whenever it behooves him.

Oberon

ALPA FastRead from May 15

The way the contract was written a pilot could wait until three hours prior to the proposed assignment to acknowledge said assignment. Since requiring a pilot to acknowledge an assignment is contractual it is "required duty" and thus not rest. Under 117 all rest must be prospective so the simple act of acknowledging an assignment started a rest period. If the contract were to be followed the company would have to schedule everything at least 19 hours in advance (12 contractual rest - 3 contractual acknowledgment = 9 + 10 FAR rest). That is a pretty difficult way to run an airline.

It appears the thought is removing a requirement for acknowledgement removes any "required duty" and allows for 13 hours of rest from the time of notification. There has to be more to it than that though. I don't see how a company could run an airline without some mechanism to determine if it's employees would actually show up.

sailingfun

Rumor only however it looks like the CDO's were not pushed hard by the company. They were desired and requested by pilots who were flying them and wanted them back. They will go very senior at a 7.5 minimum. It will be interesting to see how often the company uses them with that type of credit. I suspect in the end it might turn out to be much ado about nothing just like the 2 man ops to Europe forum hysterics a year ago.
Don't plan on those 30 hour layovers going away. The company will build trips that minimize credit. How the company does that with a 5:15 daily minimum will be interesting. Perhaps more 5 day trips. The same on transcon turns. I don't think you will see any of those. If you pull the long legs out of the trip mix it becomes very difficult to not see a large credit increase on other rotations. You need those long legs to avoid credit. It would not make sense to add a third pilot on some legs and increase credit. I suspect the relief pilot option was geared at a couple of specific flights the company wants to fly in the Central America market or NRT market.

badflaps

Think of the sausages as green slips and 80 as the little dog.

DAWGS

Do you have any experience with these? IMO, there is no way to do these adequately rested. A domestic 4 day red-eye trip has 1 back side of the clock duty period with good rest before or after the red-eye. Essentially what you will have is back to back CDOs, most likely 3 in a row, back side of the clock events. Huge difference. All the rest occurring at home. Another huge difference. Home during normal business hours is not that restful for the majority of us. Having done international, domestic red-eyes, and CDOs there is no comparison fatigue-wise. There is a reason these aren't at Delta right now. This is a HUGE give. Why?

I'll take a 30 hr layover 4 day, working a bit harder on the 3 actual days of work gladly over CDOs. There are many that pay like normal 4 days or more with a 30 hour break in decent cities. What is wrong with that?

There are so many other factors that come into play here as well that I doubt were thought through well by the designers of 117. One is the age of the pilot doing these. The thought was probably regional younger pilots would be doing this type of flying. Having 55+ captains and 40+ FOs or older is aligning another hole. I know how I felt in my 20s. There will be no way to avoid these. People say don't bid them. Yeah right. I have what looks like code for a PBS bid and am fairly senior in cat. and get ridiculous awards from time to time. We all do except for the uber senior.

If this has the muster to pass, there should be a minimum greater than the 3 hrs in the reg behind the door. I say 6 at least but they will still not be safe. Cumulative sleep debt is unavoidable.