Alan Shore

What if you had both -- 1.5 over some number (I prefer the ALV), plus the GS/IA system we have today for when they run out of reserves?

LeineLodge

I'd have to think about the ramifications of the 2nd item you mentioned there. On the surface I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing -> with the intent being to help the guy that needs to dump a trip...

Back on the 1.5 over 80 conversation, about the only way I would entertain it would be to put a cap on the premium pay, and find some sort of sane limit. Open-season incentive on 80+ just seems like a bad idea to me.

I know it sounds a little funky, but how about the 1.5 pay from ALV to ALV + 7.5 (top of the the PBS LCW). The cap would remain at ALV+15, so the last 7.5 hours would be back at straight pay, sorta creating a disincentive to go all "flitehoe" crazy. This would still provide 7.5 hours of premium access to guys, while limiting the damage done to staffing.

In effect, it would create a sweet spot where most guys would probably stop every month. Of course without thinking it through, it still "feels" like it would impact staffing negatively. I still think a better use of negotiating capital is higher payrates for all, accompanied by better credits/rigs/daily mins/etc. Get all of that done in C2015, leave the GS system in place, and I'm happy. Oh yeah, and (scope!!!

Sink r8

Not sure it's jealousy. You see disparities, and you want to understand how/why. It's OK to ask questions about how our system works, and whom it benefits.

With that said, I agree with you: last minute assignments occur. Would the pilot group prefer a system that pays those at 2X AND cycles through the category, or a system that pays 1.5, and which the SAME senior pilot(s) can get over, and over?

I'd rather have the GS system, so I see it your way. I'm also not opposed to taking a hard look at how guys are grabbing and swapping open time, so I see his point as well.

Sink r8

Seems logical and reasonable to me. If you did that, you'd have to close the swap board loopholes, and limit swaps to max pick-up which lets everyone go above the "cap" you describe. GS for extraordinary circumstances, as you describe. Staffing impact would probably be neutral, or even positive, but everyone would have an added incentive to fly nearer an upper limit (more reasonable than FAR's).

Alan Shore

So long as you had not called in sick that month without flying back the time, right?

Purple Drank

I think you're missing the big picture.

All of those reduce the number of pilots required.

ATL7ER

You are correct. Which created yet another incentive for a guy to come to work sick....to go along with the other ones such as saving the sick bank for an early retirement..

ATL7ER

Not jealous at all. In fact, how do you know I'm not doing that sort of thing myself? BTW, you don't get Greenslip pay until you are over the ALV either. And the concept of no GS#2 until everyone else has had a shot is flawed due to the fact that one has to be available and in position to take GS#1. Lot's of guys that are willing to answer the phone at 1AM or have dropped a lousy trip to create a hole in their schedule are getting GS#2+ while others who would like to get GS#1 are out flying their regular line.It's a total crapshoot. Premium pay over a certain credit threshold is not.

shiznit

You and your reasonable "compromise"... Ugh. It's a pretty decent idea on paper, it looks like it would work in the real world.

I don't want to give an incentive for "SET CONDITION MAX CREDIT". The extra hours is the extra pay. If you want to work more that is your own business, but I do not submit that it should come out of the compensation package for other pilots who don't/can't fly extra.

A premium of 7.5 hours of 1.5 is 3:45. Theat 3:45 per month equates to 45 hours per year. I would propose putting that value towards the following:
APD (4-days) be dropped with pay ≈ 21:00
One extra week of Vacation = 22:45-24:00*

Where would others like to see more pay for the same amount of work?


*Prefer the VAC day value be increased again in C2015. Does not account for the large staffing impact of the extra week off for every pilot...Which is huge.

NuGuy

Heyas Timbo,

When people call out the NWA system, they typically forget that NWA had exactly what you stated.

One half of the premium pay system was 1.5 over 80. Some people got into premium pay right out of the box with the bid line.

The good deal here is that everything counted. Pick up any flying, any time during the month, and you got the premium. No waiting by the phone and no to trying to do a last minute commute

But there were also "premium trips", which were essentially the same as a GS except you could tell which trips were "premium" in open time. If you were awarded one, you got the 1.5 even if your time was below 80.

You really got into the money if you got a premium trip and were over 80. That paid %2.25.

But here's the thing: Like Shiz said, you absolutely do not want a system like this off the leash, which by just adopting the 1.5 x 80 is what you would have.

What people forget is that NWA had a fairly rigid cap system. Rather than an ALV, you had a "max scheduled" that was set like the ALV (it was roughly equivalent to ALV +7:30). You couldn't be scheduled over that amount. You could do a "high time" (HIT) request, which permitted max schedule +5:00, but then your requests were worked after everyone else who wasn't HIT.

There was also a max actual time, which was 2:30 over the max scheduled. If you projected to go over the max actual, you had to drop a trip to take you below it.

There was also negative bank flyback, up to 15:00, but you had to have a negative bank to do that.

You could take training events for pay, no credit.

So if you had a Max scheduled of 80, and 15:00 of NBFB, 5 hours of HIT, plus had 2:30 hours of overfly, the most you could do was 102:30. Throw in a schoosh more if you had CQ that month that you took for pay, no credit. And that was it, and that's only if you had 15 hours of negative bank. If you had a zero bank, then the actual max you could do was 87:30, plus any CQ.

If you implemented the 1.5x for 80 with the same kind of cap system, the people working the system would scream bloody murder.

To make the system worthwhile to change, in my personal opinion, it would have to be:

1.5 over ALV, and all time counts
Premium trips (AKA GS) remain at 2x
Multipliers still stack
Implement at more rigid cap system, perhaps with a max scheduled of +15:00 over ALV, PERIOD. I'm not sure if a forced drop due to over max actual is worthwhile, but I'd check into it.
Anything over ALV +7.:30 (or pick a number) goes into a separate bucket, permitting people below ALV +7:30 to bid for open time first.

Nu