Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
FTB,
By all means direct your anger toward whoever you want. The main point of my post was that when pilots post personal insults at other pilots on this forum they detract from their argument. There is nothing wrong with being angry, disappointed, or frustrated with our union - at times I have felt all of these emotions (sometimes simultaneously). I am not saying it is wrong to criticize DALPA, but why not try to criticize with a well thought out and critical argument vice name-calling?
Scoop
By all means direct your anger toward whoever you want. The main point of my post was that when pilots post personal insults at other pilots on this forum they detract from their argument. There is nothing wrong with being angry, disappointed, or frustrated with our union - at times I have felt all of these emotions (sometimes simultaneously). I am not saying it is wrong to criticize DALPA, but why not try to criticize with a well thought out and critical argument vice name-calling?
Scoop
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 841
Did we just put an A330-300 in the new colors into storage at MZJ?
But hey, I'll poke myself in the eye here. I have a motivation, I do not want to lose my good job. I fear the relaxation of scope, I fear Alaska, I fear a merger with Alaska, I fear the DC9 leaving, I fear anything that could cost us jobs. So I am a scope before pay kind of guy (even though I like getting paid and I love our work rules) and I understand that not all would agree and I admit the dangers of being myopic.
With that said, is there any downside in fighting for stronger scope, for grabing Compass, for bringing in the 76 or not allowing anyone to have them, or any other scope related issue, etc?
I'll hang up and listen.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 09-27-2009 at 10:34 AM.
I agree, there is a place for anger, but it is not at the table. We need a dialogue with each other to come to a consensus. Anger and finger waving at past actions, and individuals just dilutes our purpose, strength and direction.
It takes a lot of effort to take a deep breath, step back and come at the issues with a rational approach. After all it is our careers and families we are dealing with.
I say bravo to those that stay informed, and engaged. We need a lot more of this.
It takes a lot of effort to take a deep breath, step back and come at the issues with a rational approach. After all it is our careers and families we are dealing with.
I say bravo to those that stay informed, and engaged. We need a lot more of this.
For example, we took a 42% pay cut, lost our pension, and had thousands of our jobs outsourced. Getting a few low single digit increases to our pay rates doesn't do anything other than keep our emergency/bankruptcy rates adjusted for inflation. In this economy and the situation right now in our industry, it's obviously not realistic to expect that we would get the 73%+ pay increase it would take to restore our pay. But it also needs to be clearly understood that a couple percent here and there isn't going to come anywhere close to cutting it. This is where the present MEC administration has failed us miserably, IMO... by setting (whether intentional or unintentional) expectations on the part of both management and the pilot group way too low.
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: The Beginnings
Posts: 1,317
Why Airline Mergers Don't Work: Scale Is Not a Blessing
Why Airline Mergers Don't Work: Scale Is Not a Blessing -- Seeking Alpha
On March 24, 2008 my first post on Why Airline Mergers Don’t Work opened with the following paragraph:
Ever wonder why over the last 30 years Southwest Airlines management (NYSE: LUV) spent only $0.03 on mergers and acquisitions for every $1.00 of shareholder value they created? By comparison Delta management (NYSE: DAL) spent $2.35 for every $1.00 of value they created. And Northwest (NYSE: NWA) spent $1.61 on M&A for every $1.00 of value they created. In Louisiana we have a name for this kind of strategy: Jumping over a dollar to get to a nickel.
In a nutshell, I found that airline mergers don’t work because the bigger an airline gets, the greater its exposure to low price carriers like Southwest. This exposure forces management to meet lower fares in more markets, which puts inescapable downward pressure on ticket prices, revenues and earnings. In air travel, scale is not a blessing, it’s a curse. Of course the two biggest M&A losers cited above went ahead with their merger and now have become what Delta advertising proudly proclaims is the world’s largest airline.
*** continued ***
Why Airline Mergers Don't Work: Scale Is Not a Blessing -- Seeking Alpha
On March 24, 2008 my first post on Why Airline Mergers Don’t Work opened with the following paragraph:
Ever wonder why over the last 30 years Southwest Airlines management (NYSE: LUV) spent only $0.03 on mergers and acquisitions for every $1.00 of shareholder value they created? By comparison Delta management (NYSE: DAL) spent $2.35 for every $1.00 of value they created. And Northwest (NYSE: NWA) spent $1.61 on M&A for every $1.00 of value they created. In Louisiana we have a name for this kind of strategy: Jumping over a dollar to get to a nickel.
In a nutshell, I found that airline mergers don’t work because the bigger an airline gets, the greater its exposure to low price carriers like Southwest. This exposure forces management to meet lower fares in more markets, which puts inescapable downward pressure on ticket prices, revenues and earnings. In air travel, scale is not a blessing, it’s a curse. Of course the two biggest M&A losers cited above went ahead with their merger and now have become what Delta advertising proudly proclaims is the world’s largest airline.
*** continued ***
Mergers of airlines never create the synergies that are hoped for. They do create some very short term wealth for those who oversee and consummate the merger. Hate to be a cynic about this, but as they say, "it is what it is".
I hear the same thing on the APA wailing wall - "it's unrealistic to get a 50% raise right now."
The sad part is, whenever asked to expand upon such reasoning, a well-reasoned answer has been elusive. Instead, an emotional answer usually ensues.
When you actually look at the actual cost of what it would take to restore your (and mine) contracts to a level reflecting the 2000 UAL and DAL TAs, we are talking basically about adding 5 bucks to a passengers ticket.
The usual response to that is, "we need to be competitive." Well, yes, but you are assuming that all of the other carriers will not follow suit. AA pilots are gunning for pay that is near DAL 2000 levels, and that is just pay. UAL opens soon, and everything I have seen and heard points to UAL 2000 rates plus "interest."
How is your airline "uncompetitive" if everyone is making basically the same money? Southwest and the cargo carriers are already paying way more. How is it WN is able to pay so much and yet financially clean everyone's clock? How is it that carriers like Skybus go out of business paying their employees peanuts? Can you name a carrier that has ever been put into ch. 7 due to pilot costs?
Lastly, if you could make a list of some of the more egregious ways management has wasted money, you will quickly eclipse the dollar figure of any pilot pay increase package. Why is it "not realistic" for you to get paid what you are worth, but "realistic" for management to waste 10s of millions on ineptitude?
It is managements job to pass the pay on to customers and to manage an airline with the competence of a pro worth the 10s of million they pay themselves. This is THEIR problem. By opening with "it's not realistic", you have lost the battle before it begins.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,238
Slightly unrelated to the current conversation trend, but still a Delta question. With the JV with Virgin Blue do Delta have any non rev privliges? I'd like to get from Sydney to NZ and with this nice new JV figured I could use Vir Blue.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Alfa,
I don't usually get involved in these discussions and I usually agree with a lot of what you say but it just seems to me if you take the attitude that you have with the above quote, every resolution that is passed at a 44 council meeting should be tabled unless there are 1800 or 1900 pilots in attendance to get a true 'feel' of the majority. When was the last time that many pilots attended a union meeting (other than contract time)?
Denny
I don't usually get involved in these discussions and I usually agree with a lot of what you say but it just seems to me if you take the attitude that you have with the above quote, every resolution that is passed at a 44 council meeting should be tabled unless there are 1800 or 1900 pilots in attendance to get a true 'feel' of the majority. When was the last time that many pilots attended a union meeting (other than contract time)?
Denny
For instance, it wouldn't be hard to organize a large group of people to pack a town hall meeting with my congressman, that all support "xxxxx" position in health care reform. (I use "xxxxx" because I don't want to get into a political discussion about health care). They could get hundreds of people to jam their phone lines, they could make appointment after appointment at his office. Does this mean that "xxxxx" position now has to be the law of the land? Does it even mean that my congressman should have to adopt that position?
It is easy for a highly motivated minority to organize and present a display of overwhelming support when in fact it is not the majority position. Grass roots efforts are one part of the equation but that is not the whole equation. Democracy is not just listening to the loudest voices.
In fact, the founders of the country formed a representational democracy, we don't rule by polls, we rule by sending representatives to government, where hopefully they educate themselves on the issues, listen to ALL their constituents, talk with other representatives, and then make an informed decision.
I support people going to meetings and talking to their reps. If they want to pass a resolution then great. What I have a problem with is when these people now say "I have spoken, do what I say!" Other people speak too and they have to be heard. What we have seen is that after these resolutions have passed, the pilots that organized the resolutions demand that their voices are now the only ones heard and they have to be followed. That is just a little too demanding in my view. What about the rest of the council, do their views not matter at all?
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,242
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
The combined Delta carries about 180 million passengers per year, with total passenger revenue of about $24 billion. That works out to about $130 per passenger ticket. To return to C2K levels at Delta (not just compensation, but including work rules and retirement) would require each of those passengers to pay an additional $10 per ticket, or an 8% increase in cost. While that doesn't sound like much, that price puts the fare at the bottom of GRS displays by a long shot. There has to be a compelling reason for a passenger to pay the difference. By the way, that increase is on the average ticket. The averages are skewed by frequent flyer redemptions on the bottom, so the actual price increases are much greater.
The usual response to that is, "we need to be competitive." Well, yes, but you are assuming that all of the other carriers will not follow suit. AA pilots are gunning for pay that is near DAL 2000 levels, and that is just pay. UAL opens soon, and everything I have seen and heard points to UAL 2000 rates plus "interest."
How is your airline "uncompetitive" if everyone is making basically the same money? Southwest and the cargo carriers are already paying way more. How is it WN is able to pay so much and yet financially clean everyone's clock? How is it that carriers like Skybus go out of business paying their employees peanuts? Can you name a carrier that has ever been put into ch. 7 due to pilot costs?.
Lastly, if you could make a list of some of the more egregious ways management has wasted money, you will quickly eclipse the dollar figure of any pilot pay increase package. Why is it "not realistic" for you to get paid what you are worth, but "realistic" for management to waste 10s of millions on ineptitude?
There are incompetent management teams out there. Delta sure had them. 170 of them have gone bankrupt. But if you think they weren't competing for the last nickel they could pick up, then you aren't in the same world that I'm in. Again, I wish the world was different, that management was actually held accountable for their performance. They aren't (for the most part). Some are. Mullin and Reid are gone from Delta. Carty is gone from AMR. But we see too many recycled hacks and failures like Tilton allowed to manage good money into bad. That's the reality. Delta pilots lost 42% and their pension during the last decade caused by Mullin's mismanagement. Mullin left with a multimillion parachute and is now a TARP recipient at Goldman Sachs.
The reality sucks. It will be interesting to see how you guys get 52% when your company is already losing tons of money, and the increase you're looking for will only put them further in the hole. APA hasn't exactly had a sterling track record in front of the courts, arbitrations, or the NMB. But I sincerely wish you luck. Your success would help us all.
Last edited by slowplay; 09-27-2009 at 02:28 PM. Reason: typos
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