Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-06-2014, 08:23 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
As you know SWA is literally paying Delta to fly these B717s. I wouldn't care if it was off the property either if it cost me contract concessions to acquire.
You may not think 34 seats is a big deal, but it is. That makes it fit easily within our scope. As always, the issue is pay and cost. I would bid a 76 seat RJ (or at least you would) if it came with a DALPA negotiated pay scale. But that's never gonna happen. We can't draw the line anywhere because we don't draw the line. Delta does. They can fly any size airplane they want on the mainline. Always could. You know that.
They just don't want to negotiate a suitable pay rate with the union. Never did. You know that.
Looking forward, maybe they will. But they still have cheaper options at the present. And I'm not willing to give up anything on my end to make it affordable for them. Why would I? Why would you?
You may not think 34 seats is a big deal, but it is. That makes it fit easily within our scope. As always, the issue is pay and cost. I would bid a 76 seat RJ (or at least you would) if it came with a DALPA negotiated pay scale. But that's never gonna happen. We can't draw the line anywhere because we don't draw the line. Delta does. They can fly any size airplane they want on the mainline. Always could. You know that.
They just don't want to negotiate a suitable pay rate with the union. Never did. You know that.
Looking forward, maybe they will. But they still have cheaper options at the present. And I'm not willing to give up anything on my end to make it affordable for them. Why would I? Why would you?
where to begin.The Delta PWA, Section 1, provides that Delta pilots perform Delta flying. We then permit some flying to be flown off our list in Sections 1 D., E., O., and Q.
We already have pay rates established for the type of aircraft operated in a 76 seat configuration.
76 seats is an arbitrary number. It has nothing to do with any objective limitation of the aircraft, or type certification. We negotiated and agreed to that definition. The result of that definition determines who is a "Delta pilot" and what airlines we merge with.
SWA isn't exactly paying Delta to take these 717's, but they are a good deal I am told. Their engines are rather bespoke units (built by BMW + Rolls, with no aftermarket support to speak of). I expect the 717 is a bridge aircraft to the C Series or something similar. Many see the market heading that direction and a big battle brewing over who will fly the 100 to 130 seat sized small jets. I like that the 717 at least facilitated our win of that battle for at least another round (which is your job according to your avatar).
03-06-2014, 08:30 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Always find it interesting that when number to FEDERAL REGULATORS (managers could potentially go to jail or expose the Company to litigation from it's owners) some believe management risks it all just to make distinctions to manipulate pilots when really, not many pilots read an 8K report.
But this works in our favor. If Delta's SJ arrangements accounted for 21% of the company's 2011 revenues ($6.39b) but 47% ($929m) of Delta's 2011 operating profit, then why would be outsource to what management claims is an inferior operator? Why would we let it go through a staffing crisis as we approach the busiest flying year in the history of mankind? Why would mainline pilots not want a piece of this profitable action?
But this works in our favor. If Delta's SJ arrangements accounted for 21% of the company's 2011 revenues ($6.39b) but 47% ($929m) of Delta's 2011 operating profit, then why would be outsource to what management claims is an inferior operator? Why would we let it go through a staffing crisis as we approach the busiest flying year in the history of mankind? Why would mainline pilots not want a piece of this profitable action?
03-06-2014, 08:33 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
03-06-2014, 08:37 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Position: The Parlor
Posts: 1,247
Meh disregard
03-06-2014, 08:45 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Economically Delta can invest their cash in ANA style puppy mills (ie Pan Am Flight Academy or Comair Academy with subsidies), or provide a better career. As a union member I would like to see us work to improve the career while maintaining or improving standards for training and competency.
After an astronaut-style interview process the LH or ANA new hire spends 24 months getting trained to company standards. With full pay, benefits and as a member of the respective union.
Even the training at those carriers is governed to some extent by their respective versions of the PWA.
The student does sign a training bond that comes due if the student elects to leave the company and use the training for employment at other carriers.
Traing new-hire Delta pilots from scratch is a great idea if the trainee is in-fact a Delta employee and compensated as such. This type of training is no different than what armed forces do with their flying branches with flying that is far more risky and variable than scheduled airline service. It can be done and done well with good results but it takes time. This type of training cannot be done in under 24 months to the line without compromising the end result.
ANA and LH aren't puppy mills but professional companies that actually pay their employees well, to learn high-level-skills the company needs.
If Delta were pursuing that model of MPL, I would be 100% behind it.
Cheers
George
P.S.: If in your mind training pilots ab-initio = puppy mill, then every flying program of our military is a puppy mill.
On your next trip with an ex-AF guy, maybe you can call the AF academy a puppy mill see how that goes over ;-)
03-06-2014, 08:56 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
George,
Bad choice of words on my part. Mea Culpa.
Delta has provided scholarships with flight training in the past. Those students then went to DCI carriers and some are now at Delta. The entire program was much less structured than ANA's.
Given that Delta may be moving that direction, your experience and your teaching us what we do not know about that program will be valuable. Keep me straight
Yes, that is where I think Delta is going.
Bad choice of words on my part. Mea Culpa.
Delta has provided scholarships with flight training in the past. Those students then went to DCI carriers and some are now at Delta. The entire program was much less structured than ANA's.
Given that Delta may be moving that direction, your experience and your teaching us what we do not know about that program will be valuable. Keep me straight
Yes, that is where I think Delta is going.
03-06-2014, 08:59 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
03-06-2014, 09:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+
Posts: 1,278
where to begin.The Delta PWA, Section 1, provides that Delta pilots perform Delta flying. We then permit some flying to be flown off our list in Sections 1 D., E., O., and Q.
We already have pay rates established for the type of aircraft operated in a 76 seat configuration.
76 seats is an arbitrary number. It has nothing to do with any objective limitation of the aircraft, or type certification. We negotiated and agreed to that definition. The result of that definition determines who is a "Delta pilot" and what airlines we merge with.
SWA isn't exactly paying Delta to take these 717's, but they are a good deal I am told. Their engines are rather bespoke units (built by BMW + Rolls, with no aftermarket support to speak of). I expect the 717 is a bridge aircraft to the C Series or something similar. Many see the market heading that direction and a big battle brewing over who will fly the 100 to 130 seat sized small jets. I like that the 717 at least facilitated our win of that battle for at least another round (which is your job according to your avatar).
03-06-2014, 09:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
I expect the 717 is a bridge aircraft to the C Series or something similar. Many see the market heading that direction and a big battle brewing over who will fly the 100 to 130 seat sized small jets. I like that the 717 at least facilitated our win of that battle for at least another round (which is your job according to your avatar).
03-06-2014, 09:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: MD-88 F/O
Posts: 1,004
For when you have time to sit back and enjoy a magical moment...
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
