Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-03-2014, 06:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,169
Part 1:
TSquare,
The key is unity.
If we were to extend our list down to capture the ALPA member express pilots (merge them by DOH with their peers) then roll our seniority numbers down to make their jobs "Delta" jobs while closing the permissions in our Section 1 as are necessary to align the contract with reality ... the problem is instantly fixed.
Delta will never have a problem hiring pilots for Delta jobs.
Only ALPA could administer such a thing.
If you recall, we profited from a Joint Pilot Working Agreement. Lee Moak and our MEC leveraged unity for pay. We know how to do that. Instead of saying you will not give up a cent, why not make the better argument of "what can I get for this?"
If you graph pilot pay by aircraft productivity (which is how we've always done it) the RJ guys make more for less while you make less for more. I would argue that in exchange for a career with a future we probably need to shift the pay curve to the right (your end) prior to your retirement.
The benefit to the small jet (they aren't regional jets) pilot is that their flight training now leads them into a career instead of a dead end.
This is the way forward, if we can convince our leadership to capitalize on it.
There is a first mover advantage to Delta management.
TSquare,
The key is unity.
If we were to extend our list down to capture the ALPA member express pilots (merge them by DOH with their peers) then roll our seniority numbers down to make their jobs "Delta" jobs while closing the permissions in our Section 1 as are necessary to align the contract with reality ... the problem is instantly fixed.
Delta will never have a problem hiring pilots for Delta jobs.
Only ALPA could administer such a thing.
If you recall, we profited from a Joint Pilot Working Agreement. Lee Moak and our MEC leveraged unity for pay. We know how to do that. Instead of saying you will not give up a cent, why not make the better argument of "what can I get for this?"
If you graph pilot pay by aircraft productivity (which is how we've always done it) the RJ guys make more for less while you make less for more. I would argue that in exchange for a career with a future we probably need to shift the pay curve to the right (your end) prior to your retirement.
The benefit to the small jet (they aren't regional jets) pilot is that their flight training now leads them into a career instead of a dead end.
This is the way forward, if we can convince our leadership to capitalize on it.
There is a first mover advantage to Delta management.
What you're outlining, BB, is a win-win-win for regional pilots, us, and Delta. Now how to get all parties to agree on something like that is a completely different story.
03-03-2014, 06:59 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Part 1:
TSquare,
The key is unity.
If we were to extend our list down to capture the ALPA member express pilots (merge them by DOH with their peers) then roll our seniority numbers down to make their jobs "Delta" jobs while closing the permissions in our Section 1 as are necessary to align the contract with reality ... the problem is instantly fixed.
Delta will never have a problem hiring pilots for Delta jobs.
Only ALPA could administer such a thing.
If you recall, we profited from a Joint Pilot Working Agreement. Lee Moak and our MEC leveraged unity for pay. We know how to do that. Instead of saying you will not give up a cent, why not make the better argument of "what can I get for this?"
If you graph pilot pay by aircraft productivity (which is how we've always done it) the RJ guys make more for less while you make less for more. I would argue that in exchange for a career with a future we probably need to shift the pay curve to the right (your end) prior to your retirement.
The benefit to the small jet (they aren't regional jets) pilot is that their flight training now leads them into a career instead of a dead end.
This is the way forward, if we can convince our leadership to capitalize on it.
There is a first mover advantage to Delta management.
TSquare,
The key is unity.
If we were to extend our list down to capture the ALPA member express pilots (merge them by DOH with their peers) then roll our seniority numbers down to make their jobs "Delta" jobs while closing the permissions in our Section 1 as are necessary to align the contract with reality ... the problem is instantly fixed.
Delta will never have a problem hiring pilots for Delta jobs.
Only ALPA could administer such a thing.
If you recall, we profited from a Joint Pilot Working Agreement. Lee Moak and our MEC leveraged unity for pay. We know how to do that. Instead of saying you will not give up a cent, why not make the better argument of "what can I get for this?"
If you graph pilot pay by aircraft productivity (which is how we've always done it) the RJ guys make more for less while you make less for more. I would argue that in exchange for a career with a future we probably need to shift the pay curve to the right (your end) prior to your retirement.
The benefit to the small jet (they aren't regional jets) pilot is that their flight training now leads them into a career instead of a dead end.
This is the way forward, if we can convince our leadership to capitalize on it.
There is a first mover advantage to Delta management.
But I'll stipulate that the "what can I get for this" is a better argument.
03-03-2014, 07:00 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Part II:
Major airlines other choice is to accept a reset in the express flying cost model which probably doubles labor costs. Even then, they will constantly lose pilots to other express carriers offering better pay or signing bonus money.
If express flying gets too expensive, then our feed from smaller markets will diminish. Everything in this business is still running slim margins. Can we afford to lose that business traveller from Topeka to Asia?
The other advantages to unity have been well covered here before:
The other part of this nut will be going to the FAA and possibly Congress to revise flight training rules. 1,500 hours is a nearly insurmountable wall. We should want to revise this BEFORE Airlines 4 America beats us to the punch with some sort of a euro style multi crew license. We should integrate our training proposal on the basis of military flight training which has some reliance on mentorship. That mentorship should be based in the Delta way of doing things.
I like the CI 400 logo
Some think it is very important that Delta interview these pilots. I agree. Express flying on a Delta ticket is Delta flying. Those pilots should be Delta pilots. Which division Delta wants to operate it with is up to management, but as a union, we should do our best to make sure one of us is flying the plane.
Major airlines other choice is to accept a reset in the express flying cost model which probably doubles labor costs. Even then, they will constantly lose pilots to other express carriers offering better pay or signing bonus money.
If express flying gets too expensive, then our feed from smaller markets will diminish. Everything in this business is still running slim margins. Can we afford to lose that business traveller from Topeka to Asia?
The other advantages to unity have been well covered here before:
- Currently our airline operates not three fleet types in express operations, but something like 14. We have ExpressJet, Chautauqua, Compass, GoJet Airlines, Endeavor Air, Shuttle America and SkyWest ... none of those operator's airplanes, or pilots, are interchangeable. Think of the logistical nightmare FAR 117 becomes during irops. How much more efficient could our airline be by scheduling those airplanes (which cost 2/3rd's of what we're paying for 737-900's) in ways that make the most sense instead of around 6 different Certificates?
- How much do the redundancies in Corporate structures cost? Right now if a Delta manager wants a change, he tells a Delta Connection manager who tells a Skywest manager who tells an Expressjet manager to execute a decision.
The other part of this nut will be going to the FAA and possibly Congress to revise flight training rules. 1,500 hours is a nearly insurmountable wall. We should want to revise this BEFORE Airlines 4 America beats us to the punch with some sort of a euro style multi crew license. We should integrate our training proposal on the basis of military flight training which has some reliance on mentorship. That mentorship should be based in the Delta way of doing things.
I like the CI 400 logo
Some think it is very important that Delta interview these pilots. I agree. Express flying on a Delta ticket is Delta flying. Those pilots should be Delta pilots. Which division Delta wants to operate it with is up to management, but as a union, we should do our best to make sure one of us is flying the plane.
03-03-2014, 07:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
I disagree. I think it's about to Delta's "math problem." They will need the feed and the various regionals will no longer be up to the challenge. ....
What we need to do, is come up with a pre-packaged solution, so when Delta does start having operational disruptions due to the cancelled flights we are ready.
I also agree with T that this should not cost us a penny. It is in our mutual interest that the feed is flown without interruption. Arguably mgmt has more to lose by not bringing them in, as we've already lost them. It's hard to lose what you don't currently have...
What we need to do, is come up with a pre-packaged solution, so when Delta does start having operational disruptions due to the cancelled flights we are ready.
I also agree with T that this should not cost us a penny. It is in our mutual interest that the feed is flown without interruption. Arguably mgmt has more to lose by not bringing them in, as we've already lost them. It's hard to lose what you don't currently have...
If you can show Delta that they'll have improved revenue due to stable feed while the other carriers don't/won't....also remember DCI airframes and pilots are planned to shrink by about 20% over the duration of C2012.
03-03-2014, 07:19 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Expressjet pilots just voted down their TA. Eagle decided not even to release it to their pilots. ALPA's own data reflected a near hiring shortage in 2007 before the financial crisis pushed that off until now.
Those data points converge, just as Captain Lee Moak says, at a shortage in pay and working conditions.
You and I think strategically. Was it an accidental whim that resulted in our jobs here at Delta, or did we train, prepare, invest our time and money into what we figured would be a good career? At that time the model was pretty obvious. At the beginning of this Century it became apparent that model was pretty obviously broken. I was part of maybe 5% who made it out of the interview pool ... those are pretty slim odds for a student picking a career with a $100,000 buy in.
Management is already investigating a sort of ab-inito, multi crew license proposal. Management will solve the math problem. They will solve it with us, or without us. It has always been your preference to be engaged.
Sharpen your pencil Sir. I'll be glad to assist. Politically, this is all win for ALPA and ALPA's leadership. I do not know if Captain Moak needs the express pilots to win, but this would gain their support.
Those data points converge, just as Captain Lee Moak says, at a shortage in pay and working conditions.
You and I think strategically. Was it an accidental whim that resulted in our jobs here at Delta, or did we train, prepare, invest our time and money into what we figured would be a good career? At that time the model was pretty obvious. At the beginning of this Century it became apparent that model was pretty obviously broken. I was part of maybe 5% who made it out of the interview pool ... those are pretty slim odds for a student picking a career with a $100,000 buy in.
Management is already investigating a sort of ab-inito, multi crew license proposal. Management will solve the math problem. They will solve it with us, or without us. It has always been your preference to be engaged.
Sharpen your pencil Sir. I'll be glad to assist. Politically, this is all win for ALPA and ALPA's leadership. I do not know if Captain Moak needs the express pilots to win, but this would gain their support.
03-03-2014, 07:23 AM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,745
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/avi...Air17-2012.xls
2013 data hasn't been released yet.
03-03-2014, 07:26 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
I figured that the company would ask for more short calls during negotiations for 117 but I have heard of no LOA's being signed. I was wondering if it might have been put in the DBMS programming by the company expecting that negotiations we be completed soon and this is one of the things we gave them.
Good to hear.
03-03-2014, 07:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Expressjet pilots just voted down their TA. Eagle decided not even to release it to their pilots. ALPA's own data reflected a near hiring shortage in 2007 before the financial crisis pushed that off until now.
Those data points converge, just as Captain Lee Moak says, at a shortage in pay and working conditions.
You and I think strategically. Was it an accidental whim that resulted in our jobs here at Delta, or did we train, prepare, invest our time and money into what we figured would be a good career? At that time the model was pretty obvious. At the beginning of this Century it became apparent that model was pretty obviously broken. I was part of maybe 5% who made it out of the interview pool ... those are pretty slim odds for a student picking a career with a $100,000 buy in.
Management is already investigating a sort of ab-inito, multi crew license proposal. Management will solve the math problem. They will solve it with us, or without us. It has always been your preference to be engaged.
Sharpen your pencil Sir. I'll be glad to assist. Politically, this is all win for ALPA and ALPA's leadership. I do not know if Captain Moak needs the express pilots to win, but this would gain their support.
Those data points converge, just as Captain Lee Moak says, at a shortage in pay and working conditions.
You and I think strategically. Was it an accidental whim that resulted in our jobs here at Delta, or did we train, prepare, invest our time and money into what we figured would be a good career? At that time the model was pretty obvious. At the beginning of this Century it became apparent that model was pretty obviously broken. I was part of maybe 5% who made it out of the interview pool ... those are pretty slim odds for a student picking a career with a $100,000 buy in.
Management is already investigating a sort of ab-inito, multi crew license proposal. Management will solve the math problem. They will solve it with us, or without us. It has always been your preference to be engaged.
Sharpen your pencil Sir. I'll be glad to assist. Politically, this is all win for ALPA and ALPA's leadership. I do not know if Captain Moak needs the express pilots to win, but this would gain their support.
About 15 years too late! Seriously, though, I agree that if we don't step up, someone else will (A4A). I've said before that we should take it a step even further... take over licensure... just like the AMA does with Doctors and the ABA does for Attorneys. "Solve" the FAA problem and the A4A problem with our own in-house solution. That would go a long way towards beating back the foreign threat too, and consolidate political power in the hands of pilots...
03-03-2014, 07:41 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+
Posts: 1,278
Almost certainly wrong. For each of the last 7 years, 4,000+ CFI certificates were issued. A 98% decrease in one year seems unlikely.
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/avi...Air17-2012.xls
2013 data hasn't been released yet.
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/avi...Air17-2012.xls
2013 data hasn't been released yet.
03-03-2014, 07:59 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: DAL A320 CA
Posts: 559
Expressjet pilots just voted down their TA. Eagle decided not even to release it to their pilots. ALPA's own data reflected a near hiring shortage in 2007 before the financial crisis pushed that off until now.
Those data points converge, just as Captain Lee Moak says, at a shortage in pay and working conditions.
You and I think strategically. Was it an accidental whim that resulted in our jobs here at Delta, or did we train, prepare, invest our time and money into what we figured would be a good career? At that time the model was pretty obvious. At the beginning of this Century it became apparent that model was pretty obviously broken. I was part of maybe 5% who made it out of the interview pool ... those are pretty slim odds for a student picking a career with a $100,000 buy in.
Management is already investigating a sort of ab-inito, multi crew license proposal. Management will solve the math problem. They will solve it with us, or without us. It has always been your preference to be engaged.
Sharpen your pencil Sir. I'll be glad to assist. Politically, this is all win for ALPA and ALPA's leadership. I do not know if Captain Moak needs the express pilots to win, but this would gain their support.
Those data points converge, just as Captain Lee Moak says, at a shortage in pay and working conditions.
You and I think strategically. Was it an accidental whim that resulted in our jobs here at Delta, or did we train, prepare, invest our time and money into what we figured would be a good career? At that time the model was pretty obvious. At the beginning of this Century it became apparent that model was pretty obviously broken. I was part of maybe 5% who made it out of the interview pool ... those are pretty slim odds for a student picking a career with a $100,000 buy in.
Management is already investigating a sort of ab-inito, multi crew license proposal. Management will solve the math problem. They will solve it with us, or without us. It has always been your preference to be engaged.
Sharpen your pencil Sir. I'll be glad to assist. Politically, this is all win for ALPA and ALPA's leadership. I do not know if Captain Moak needs the express pilots to win, but this would gain their support.
Bar, this is what we were trying to do by supporting the Comair pilots during their strike!!...closing the gap between mainline and DCI..then JC and Ford formed the RJDC to sue for DOH throughout the whole mainline list, held the DL furloughees hostage after 9/11, and rebuked any offer from DALPA to help furloughed ALPA pilots in return for FUTURE hiring advantages with mainline for ALPA pilots, basically quashing any sense of UNITY between DCI and mainline.
What's to prevent the same thing from happening when senior RJ captains at DCI realize they can just sue to place themselves ahead of you after we spend a huge amount of negotiating capital with management to bring all of DCI under the mainline umbrella? Unity goes both ways..
I'd like to believe that the market forces and pilot shortage will facilitate our vision, but I'm afraid of a few disgruntled pilots with lawyers that will take us back to the Comair fiasco.
(By the way..responded to your previous post on the previous page, but can't seem to type fast enough to keep up with you guys!)
Last edited by CGfalconHerc; 03-03-2014 at 08:16 AM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
