slowplay

Nice misrepresentation. I never stated that Delta couldn't afford to pay. I stated mainline costs way more. You call for "unity" but never show a path to get there. If you want your counterparty to agree, you've got to solve the math problem.

I'll use your post as an example. You've chosen a series of trips from one of the most senior CPZ pilots. He's being paid 7th year pay (maybe). CPZ has 439 pilots on the seniority list operating 42 aircraft. Compare that to mainline. CPZ averages 13 days of vacation per year. Compare that to mainline. CPZ has 1 training program. Compare that to mainline. CPZ has no duty or trip rigs. Compare that to mainline. A CPZ 6 year Captain makes $76/hr. The most junior Captain payscale at Delta (12 year CRJ-900 which is where any 76 seat Captain would be) is $136. A 76 seat mainline Captain would make more than a CPZ Captain and FO combined. There's a host of other costs not mentioned (other labor groups, longevity, benefits, hotels, etc.}

That's your math problem. Solve it, then you can talk about unity.

A goal without a plan is just a wish. Antoine de Saint-Exupery

dalad

Nope, I'm off.

tsquare

I have an early sign in tomorrow so I am headed up tonight. Thought I could get an accurate weather report

Bucking Bar

Part 1:

TSquare,

The key is unity.

If we were to extend our list down to capture the ALPA member express pilots (merge them by DOH with their peers) then roll our seniority numbers down to make their jobs "Delta" jobs while closing the permissions in our Section 1 as are necessary to align the contract with reality ... the problem is instantly fixed.

Delta will never have a problem hiring pilots for Delta jobs.

Only ALPA could administer such a thing.

If you recall, we profited from a Joint Pilot Working Agreement. Lee Moak and our MEC leveraged unity for pay. We know how to do that. Instead of saying you will not give up a cent, why not make the better argument of "what can I get for this?"

If you graph pilot pay by aircraft productivity (which is how we've always done it) the RJ guys make more for less while you make less for more. I would argue that in exchange for a career with a future we probably need to shift the pay curve to the right (your end) prior to your retirement.

The benefit to the small jet (they aren't regional jets) pilot is that their flight training now leads them into a career instead of a dead end.

This is the way forward, if we can convince our leadership to capitalize on it.

There is a first mover advantage to Delta management.

dalad

I hope so, I'm about to start year 2 of my last decade.

Free Bird

Gee Slow,

When the picture is painted like that it makes one think that maybe expanding the number of C scale pilot jobs wasn't a good thing. Now we (mainline pilots) have to compete against all of those really low paying jobs that we allowed to happen on C2012.

Hopefully DALPA and the pilot group will learn from this and stop allowing more large RJ's onto the property. I agree with T on this (did I really just say that?) the RJ problem will largely take care of itself, let's stop prolonging the pain.

LeineLodge

I disagree. I think it's about to Delta's "math problem." They will need the feed and the various regionals will no longer be up to the challenge.

As Tsquare put it, our challenge is to get that flying on the list. If the market rate for that kind of flying gets significantly more expensive, then it will be up to management to decide how to handle that - some routes may not support the higher costs, etc.

What we need to do, is come up with a pre-packaged solution, so when Delta does start having operational disruptions due to the cancelled flights we are ready.

It could even be some sort of transition period, with hybrid rates to bridge the gap. Hire all of their guys to the bottom of the list (so they start accruing seniority/longevity), and each year bring them over little-by-little. THAT would be a carrot (not this craziness where they work long-term for crappy rates just for the opportunity at a mere interview. As long as there is a short/medium term plan to get eventually get all that flying in house on the A-scale, then I could get behind it.

I also agree with T that this should not cost us a penny. It is in our mutual interest that the feed is flown without interruption. Arguably mgmt has more to lose by not bringing them in, as we've already lost them. It's hard to lose what you don't currently have...

flyallnite

No worries, nobody is saying your group didn't get dinged. You most definitely did. Scope is the reason why we have 3 lists, and are so fractured to this day. Mgmt. loves every minute of that because it pays them back dividends in the form of negotiating leverage they never had before. I think they'll fight it to the end, even if the economics don't make sense.

CGfalconHerc

Bar, was just looking at the pics you posted and saw that you gave me a shout-out..thanks for the free press!

If I could address your points;

It frustrates me, and 1310 other DL furloughees, when you continue to blame us and ALPA for our own furlough, and yet refuse to admit that RJ captains benefitted greatly when we were replaced. I'm usually a pretty low key guy, but that loss of situational awareness requires a response.

DL pilots supported Comair as a gesture of UNITY by supporting the Comair strike and sending assessment checks. I don't have a pic of me checking the Struck Work guide while flying sideways out of CVG..but please know WE took the strike seriously and had the VISION to lift the RJ pay rates closer to mainline as the only way to prevent whipsawing.

Once again; DL pilots negotiated a no furlough clause in our contract. Since we had that clause, the threat of being REPLACED by RJ's was nullified, and we AGREED to unlimited 50 seat jets flying our pax to LIFT the entire profession.

Then 9/11 and Force Majuere..

CGfalconHerc

Bar, was just looking at the pics you posted and saw that you gave me a shout-out..thanks for the free press!

If I could address your points;

It frustrates me, and 1310 other DL furloughees, when you continue to blame us and ALPA for our own furlough, and yet refuse to admit that RJ captains benefitted greatly when we were replaced. I'm usually a pretty low key guy, but that loss of situational awareness requires a response.

DL pilots supported Comair as a gesture of UNITY by supporting the Comair strike and sending assessment checks. I don't have a pic of me checking the Struck Work guide while flying sideways out of CVG..but please know WE took the strike seriously and had the VISION to lift the RJ pay rates closer to mainline as the only way to prevent whipsawing.

Once again; DL pilots negotiated a no furlough clause in our contract. Since we had that clause, the threat of being REPLACED by RJ's was nullified, and we AGREED to unlimited 50 seat jets flying our pax to LIFT the entire profession.

Then 9/11 and Force Majuere..

JC and the Comair MEC refused to let DL furloughees sit in the RIGHT seat of the shiny new RJ's we had agreed to let fly in UNLIMITED numbers. You say that it's our fault for not demonstrating unity with the Comair/ASA pilots..and therefore we reap what we sowed. My point is that we had ALREADY demonstrated unity with Comair and when the &@$@ hit the fan, the gesture of UNITY was not returned in kind.

Let's move forward to today. I think you and I would agree that we need to bring ALL Delta branded flying back to mainline, regardless of acft size, and make Delta the airline of choice for professional aviators from winging to retirement. We should have just kept CPZ, stapled their list, and secured a quality feed with a quality acft for the future. But would the senior CPZ captains form an RJDC to sue for DOH, putting them in front of you? We would be reliving the good ol' Comair yrs. Or does it make sense to keep us separate, control a flow up, which effectively does the same thing?

Again.you and I want the same thing for the future. Our individual pasts dictate our individual reaction to past furloughs.