Originally Posted by TheManager

All I will say is this: name the one contract you have had at DL where you believe the ALPA negotiators and the pilot trainees were significantly successful.

'96? C12k? Or was it *c2k?

Presently, the pilot flying your equipment and seat after POS 96 makes more than you do now adjusted for inflation/cost of living.

Maybe it's time for us to explore the idea as a collective body. Doing the same thing over decades that hasn't yield meaningful gains since deregulation is insane.

Next and more important issue.

Now, this is a divided group. Half the list is ****ed they are a scourge and cancer as labeled by their own CBA. The CBA has also done no bridge building and has not addressed some of the more practical and thoughtful complaints that pilots both pro ALPA and pro DPA have. Business as usual.

Take the above paragraph and divide things along seniority lines. We will be adding many pilots prior to ratification of the next agreement. We will be losing many to 65. Demographics will shift by the month instead of by the years.

Junior pilots will want to hold out for a max raise. More in their 401k NOW while they are fairly new to the list and career.

Senior pilots will want to take what ever they can bank as soon as possible. TVo$. They also want to adjust how we are paid, LBP to account for the scant number of premium wide body seats available as they get closer to 65.

Basically, this is ALPAs serious problem. How do you unite everyone, DPA, senior, junior, and the die hard ALPA lifers?

I know how, but no one here will like the answer.

* ( for the new hires ) sure, c2k was a great gain. Here is the problem. We got it because of one fact. 3b6. This was a contract provision we used in the late 90s to extract good pay rates when Leo the CEO bought 777s, 73Ns, and 767-4s. Basically it worked like this: fly them for six mos, no pay rate consensus during negotiations, then park them. Leo threatened to sell every 777. Some guys were running around incontinent and frantically hysterical about how the sky was falling.

Leo obviously didn't sell them and that is how Dalpa levered a great pay rate out of the company. Great job!! United, then in negotiations, had already agreed on rates while negotiating their TA. After our 3B6 lever, they had to go back and re do the compensation. This was during the famous "Summer of United" that was displayed prominently on all the media outlets.

They eventually were successful and patterned off our 3b6 wages and ratified their new TA. We then patterned scant dollars above them and ratified as well giving us C2k. Notably missing from C2K was one important tool. 3B6. It was explained that they had to give it away to secure that patterned rate that was in some cases a dollar more that UALs contract???

Imagine a world today with 3B6 still in it today. It was a significantly strategic tool that had little impact from the RLA and the NMB.

Enough for now, spring training is cranking up and it's going to be in the 80's.

Originally Posted by slowplay

Your history is inaccurate and incomplete.

3B6 was used to achieve the "Delta Dot." Leo didn't just threaten to park the 777 - he in fact did defer delivery on all but the 2 already operating aircraft. At the time we had 13 firm orders, 20 options and 30 rolling options for B777 aircraft. After 3B6 and C2K we wound up with a fleet of 8 (the 2 already in the fleet, 5 already in production and 1 inside the delivery cutoff line delivered in early 2002). The rest were cancelled.

Post C2k Delta furloughed 1310 pilots. We continued to take C2K pay increases that greatly inflated FAE for those at the top of the list. From 2000-2005 our pension went from 140% funded to 54% funded. C2K caused an overnight 20+% decrease in funding due to wage inflation. The rest was caused by low interest rates, an early retirement run on the bank, and investment returns during the recession.

The Delta C2K pay rates lasted until November 2004. The UAL rates only lasted until 2002(?). At USAirways they lasted a month. AMR, CAL, NWA never saw those rates. UPS, FedEx and SWA, three airlines that have been profitable throughout the last decade, have never matched those rates. 1060 of our furloughed guys never got a dime of those rates. And the early retirees took a haircut along with the rest of us when the pension was terminated.

So when we look back fondly on C2K, maybe we should do it in a more complete context. The payrates were great...for those on the property.

Originally Posted by slowplay

Y
So when we look back fondly on C2K, maybe we should do it in a more complete context.

Originally Posted by TheManager

All I will say is this: name the one contract you have had at DL where you believe the ALPA negotiators and the pilot trainees were significantly successful.

'96? C12k? Or was it *c2k?

Presently, the pilot flying your equipment and seat after POS 96 makes more than you do now adjusted for inflation/cost of living.

Maybe it's time for us to explore the idea as a collective body. Doing the same thing over decades that hasn't yield meaningful gains since deregulation is insane.

Next and more important issue.

Now, this is a divided group. Half the list is ****ed they are a scourge and cancer as labeled by their own CBA. The CBA has also done no bridge building and has not addressed some of the more practical and thoughtful complaints that pilots both pro ALPA and pro DPA have. Business as usual.

Take the above paragraph and divide things along seniority lines. We will be adding many pilots prior to ratification of the next agreement. We will be losing many to 65. Demographics will shift by the month instead of by the years.

Junior pilots will want to hold out for a max raise. More in their 401k NOW while they are fairly new to the list and career.

Senior pilots will want to take what ever they can bank as soon as possible. TVo$. They also want to adjust how we are paid, LBP to account for the scant number of premium wide body seats available as they get closer to 65.

Basically, this is ALPAs serious problem. How do you unite everyone, DPA, senior, junior, and the die hard ALPA lifers?

I know how, but no one here will like the answer.

* ( for the new hires ) sure, c2k was a great gain. Here is the problem. We got it because of one fact. 3b6. This was a contract provision we used in the late 90s to extract good pay rates when Leo the CEO bought 777s, 73Ns, and 767-4s. Basically it worked like this: fly them for six mos, no pay rate consensus during negotiations, then park them. Leo threatened to sell every 777. Some guys were running around incontinent and frantically hysterical about how the sky was falling.

Leo obviously didn't sell them and that is how Dalpa levered a great pay rate out of the company. Great job!! United, then in negotiations, had already agreed on rates while negotiating their TA. After our 3B6 lever, they had to go back and re do the compensation. This was during the famous "Summer of United" that was displayed prominently on all the media outlets.

They eventually were successful and patterned off our 3b6 wages and ratified their new TA. We then patterned scant dollars above them and ratified as well giving us C2k. Notably missing from C2K was one important tool. 3B6. It was explained that they had to give it away to secure that patterned rate that was in some cases a dollar more that UALs contract???

Imagine a world today with 3B6 still in it today. It was a significantly strategic tool that had little impact from the RLA and the NMB.

Enough for now, spring training is cranking up and it's going to be in the 80's.

Originally Posted by Spudhauler

Sailing, you said that the company vowed to not make a purchase without inked pay rates. What about the 321?

Originally Posted by TheManager

Junior pilots will want to hold out for a max raise. More in their 401k NOW while they are fairly new to the list and career.