Bucking Bar

The RJ is inconsequential. ASA and Comair were in the process of acquiring DC9's and 737s. If it had not been one type, it would have been another.

The distinction was the decision to break unity.

Timbo

Well, we tried. But it was never presented to the membership as, "Hey, let's sell 50% of our narrow body flying for a 5% pay raise!" That never would have gone over.

What was happening in 1993 was, Mo'Ron Allen was saying things like, "You give me a 5% pay cut, or I'll sell all the 737's..." And he was furloughing pilots left and right, and he'd just gotten rid of all the DC9's, so yeah, we believed he would do it. He really was that stupid.

Instead, in 1996, he put all the 737-200's into a new B scale, called Delta Express, where the Capt. would make $100/hr. (down from about $148/hr) with a two year freeze, where all the other seats only had a 12mo. freeze and paid a whole lot more.

We should have brought all the ASA and Com Air guys onto our list the minute Delta bough them, and controlled 100% of our flying, all the way down to the 36 seat RJ, and nipped the whipsawing in the bud.

But hindsight is always 20/20. I just hope the clowns at National have learned a lesson, but after seeing what they just did to Pinacle, it don't look good.

Bucking Bar

True, but two pilot groups have stood up now, Expressjet and Eagle. Republic responded by inking an industry leading contract.

Our leadership at national does most things right.

Yes, I think they are wrong on outsourcing. But, they are smart men. They will adapt, they will run the numbers, they will evolve. Otherwise, they will be remembered for their service as others replace them.

We speak with the conviction of men who know we are right.

Timbo

I've been grappling with this issue since my first flying job at 19.

WHO decides what we are worth?

Last time I checked, nobody in the CEO seat has an ATP. They cannot do our job. Nobody can do our jobs, unless they have the license and the quals. ALPA should be able to shut it down any time they don't like what the CEO is cooking. But there are some of us who would cross a picket line, obviously.

Look at CAL in 1983. I got front row seats at that one, I could have scabbed and been a 24yr. old 727 Capt. like a few of the A-holes I was flying cancelled checks with did. But I understood what they were fighting for, and I wanted their pilots to win. Then I got to see it agian, with Eastern in MIA.

I knew some dirtbags who crossed the CAL line, and I had a lot of Eastern friends who lost everything.

So when is ALPA going to play the SOS card? Without that, we are all fkd, as we saw after 9-11 and the loss of all ALPA Pensions, pay cuts, etc. Nobody at National wants to get their hands dirty.

They're gettin' paid. They've got a retirement.

Or maybe they know Congress would sell our jobs to Emirates/Quatar/Etihad/China in a NY minute, if we make a stink and ask for "Too Much".

If I were king, there'd be a National Contract, with a floor for all payrates, benefits, etc. No more whipsawing and outsourcing to the lowest bidders.

contrails

Forget the whole on-the-backs-of discussion with regard to pilots.

To really get down to the most extreme example, look no further than this:

Delta to contract out 741 jobs at Detroit Metropolitan Airport | The Detroit News

741 DGS employees at DTW are going to be laid off and re-hired at lower rates again. How many times have they already been through this?

Very sad.

The entire concourse B/C experience at DTW reflects this.

CGfalconHerc

Funny..

Rj Captains couldn't care less when they replaced fellow ALPA mainline pilots. In fact, they formed the RJDC and sued.

Now, when some other poor guys undercut them in a race to the bottom, RJ Captains are now the "pillar of unity"..fighting the good fight..(as they leave for SWA/Jblu or flow up to Delta) and leave their FO's holding the Bag O'crap they made for them.

Give me a break..
Again..my original post was in response to Junglebus's "delta pilots enjoy profit sharing ion the backs of rj pilots".

I just wanted to point out that RJ captains got a pretty good deal.

sailingfun

The flaw in your plan and what bucket fails to recognize is that DALPA does not maintain or control the seniority list. That is strictly a company function. All we could have done was asked the company to merge ASA and Comair. If they agreed which would have never happened or they decided on their own to merge the airlines as a business decision then the lists would have been merged. I attended the one meeting where it was made very clear by Comair that they would never accept a staple. The list would go through the ALPA merger policy and their position in arbitration would be DOH. I doubt that would have been the result in arbitration however it's all a moot point.
The company was not going to abandon their devide and conquer strategy under any circumstances. It was then and still is today a cornerstone of management philosophy.

sailingfun

I have a hard time understanding how we sold scope back then, to sell something you generally have to own it. Our scope was essentially zero until the 91 contract. There was nothing to sell. In fact as pointed out RA was threatening to move all aircraft smaller then a 757 to ASA and Comair and under the current scope he could have done it. We were able in the 91 agreement to finally get some scope. We would fly all jets over 70 seats. No limits below that on jets or on turboprops of any size.
In the 2001 contract where we gave up scope pay was set in stone literally years before with the agreements on the 737NG, 764 and 777 and the subsequent UAL contract. In fact pay was never really an issue and management and DALPA differed very little on what the pay rates were going to be. The only pay issue was a very short lived table position to band pay rates by management. Scope was the last thing settled in the contract long after pay rates were already sent to the printers.

sailingfun

The first furloughs were in the fall of 2001 in that time frame.

dalad

ASA was never acquiring 737 or DC-9 aircraft. The only thing I ever heard was Comair buying DC-9 or 737 aircraft in the mid 90's. We had scope in the 1996 contract that would have prevented any of that. I believe Comair was attempting to acquire the aircraft for a "charter" operation. That was almost 20 years ago so I may be wrong. The only "large" aircraft allowed in the 1996 contract were the BAE-146's and ATR-72's that ASA already had acquired.