Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-14-2014, 07:33 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Ours on the ATL 320 just fell off the cliff in March. Ugh! All my trips are below 5 hours credit a day except for one, 3 of them include at least 1 5-leg day, and 3 of them include a 30+ hr layover. I'll be working PCS hard again in March.
02-14-2014, 07:36 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Small correction - they went immediately to ~80% torque as soon as the stick shaker went off, then didn't move the throttles again. There was power during the actual aerodynamic stall, which took place well after the initial stick shaker event.
02-14-2014, 07:39 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
Posts: 3,655
02-14-2014, 07:40 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 404
02-14-2014, 07:45 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Icing had nothing to do with the accident. They simply stalled the aircraft.
The airplane performance study and simulations showed that the airplane experienced minimal performance degradation because of ice accretion.184 Specifically, the AOA at the time of the wing stall was about 1° above the expected AOA for a clean wing (no ice accretion) stall warning. Thus, the airplane could have been operated in normal flight, at the non-icing Vref, and with a substantial margin remaining above the actual point of stall. As a result, the NTSB concludes that the minimal aircraft performance degradation resulting from ice accumulation did not affect the flight crew’s ability to fly and control the airplane. The flight crew’s actions during the accident sequence are further discussed in sections 2.2.2 through 2.2.4.
They were at 2300 feet on autopilot approaching the marker in level flight. The CA commanded gear down and flaps to 15. Props were set to fine pitch and power to idle. It was left there until the aircraft stalled. The PFD gave them 18 seconds of warning in red they were slowing below the commanded AS prior to stick shaker.
The airplane performance study and simulations showed that the airplane experienced minimal performance degradation because of ice accretion.184 Specifically, the AOA at the time of the wing stall was about 1° above the expected AOA for a clean wing (no ice accretion) stall warning. Thus, the airplane could have been operated in normal flight, at the non-icing Vref, and with a substantial margin remaining above the actual point of stall. As a result, the NTSB concludes that the minimal aircraft performance degradation resulting from ice accumulation did not affect the flight crew’s ability to fly and control the airplane. The flight crew’s actions during the accident sequence are further discussed in sections 2.2.2 through 2.2.4.
They were at 2300 feet on autopilot approaching the marker in level flight. The CA commanded gear down and flaps to 15. Props were set to fine pitch and power to idle. It was left there until the aircraft stalled. The PFD gave them 18 seconds of warning in red they were slowing below the commanded AS prior to stick shaker.
02-14-2014, 07:49 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
02-14-2014, 07:55 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Hold up there, you're putting a few words in my mouth based on one throwaway comment. I'm not saying "RJ pilots got screwed". Every one of us knew exactly what we were getting into when we took the job. Mind you, we made that decision because it had become a defacto requirement for a civilian pilot who wanted to fly for the majors, but that's no excuse. I take responsibility for my actions and don't claim to be a victim whatsoever. Neither do I consider 10 years at the regionals "winning the lottery," though it certainly beats what you had to go through.
It seems like you've made the connection between outsourcing of narrowbody flying and your furlough and subsequent stagnation; don't you want that flying to be recaptured? That's what I want (and have for 10 years), and with the pilot shortage getting underway there may very well be a good chance to do exactly that in the near future. I don't want you to recapture it because RJ guys got screwed...we didn't, we got exactly what we were looking for (a chance at the majors) and no more. I want you to recapture it because junior guys like yourself got screwed, royally. I want you to recapture it because there is presently an enormous schism across this profession, and the lack of unity is going to hurt us going forward.
I've been trying to avoid "mainline guys are to blame for giving up scope!" arguments lately because *everyone* has a share of the blame, it's hypocritical to blame someone for a choice that I subsequently took advantage of, and because blaming people makes enemies out of needed allies. My throwaway comment about profit checks partially financed by RJ flying probably sounded accusatory, when I was mostly saying "Look, everything in this industry is connected. You can't biatch about Pt 117 that much when your wages, profit sharing etc were partially financed by contract decisions that eventually led to the conditions that brought about Pt 117." It's an argument for taking back scope: outsourcing 50% of your narrowbody flying will inevitably affect the 50% you keep.
It seems like you've made the connection between outsourcing of narrowbody flying and your furlough and subsequent stagnation; don't you want that flying to be recaptured? That's what I want (and have for 10 years), and with the pilot shortage getting underway there may very well be a good chance to do exactly that in the near future. I don't want you to recapture it because RJ guys got screwed...we didn't, we got exactly what we were looking for (a chance at the majors) and no more. I want you to recapture it because junior guys like yourself got screwed, royally. I want you to recapture it because there is presently an enormous schism across this profession, and the lack of unity is going to hurt us going forward.
I've been trying to avoid "mainline guys are to blame for giving up scope!" arguments lately because *everyone* has a share of the blame, it's hypocritical to blame someone for a choice that I subsequently took advantage of, and because blaming people makes enemies out of needed allies. My throwaway comment about profit checks partially financed by RJ flying probably sounded accusatory, when I was mostly saying "Look, everything in this industry is connected. You can't biatch about Pt 117 that much when your wages, profit sharing etc were partially financed by contract decisions that eventually led to the conditions that brought about Pt 117." It's an argument for taking back scope: outsourcing 50% of your narrowbody flying will inevitably affect the 50% you keep.
Junglebus..I'm getting the vibe that you're a champion of the "RJ pilots got screwed" and that mainline pilots are enjoying their profit sharing checks "on the backs of poor RJ pilots". As one of the former 1310 DAL furloughees, let me offer a different perspective;
RJ Captains didn't have any problems upgrading in a few years and logging a decades worth of TPIC on the backs of mainline furloughees.
RJ Captains at Comair didn't have any problems cashing Strike Assesment checks as mainline pilots honored their struck work out of CVG and tried to reduce the pay gap by making Comair pilots the highest paid RJ Captains in the industry.
RJ Captains didn't have any problem refusing to allow furloughed mainline pilots to get hired in the RIGHT seat at Comair in exchange of preferred interviews at DAL unless the lists were merged and all scope provisions were eliminated.
RJ Captains didn't have a problem supporting the RJDC to sue mainline ALPA.
RJ Captains didn't have a problem flying to the 121 max for the lowest bidder as long as they got to fly new, bigger turbine aircraft on routes that used to be flown by mainline 737, 727, M88, DC9 pilots.
Rj Captains didn't have any problem flying legacy passengers hub to hub, laying over in FCA, MSO, JAC and then non-revving with their families in first class to Paris while they made an average of $100k a year.
RJ Captains didn't have a problem using their thousands of hours of PIC to shop around for a SWA/JBLU/Frontier/Spirit/Allegiant/Suncountry/ect. job but then enjoy a flow-thru agreement to DAL and get a class date just weeks after our final furloughees get back to the line after a decade without their ID badge.
Sorry Junglebus. You just got hired at Delta, right? You better save the "on the backs of RJ pilots" for APC..'cause it ain't gonna fly when you're talking smack around 15 yr FO's who are still waiting for a chance to move to the left seat.
Here's what I've been doing while you've been an RJ Captain;
DFW 727C, SLC 727B, SLC 73NB..9/11..DFW M90B, CVG M88B, Furlough...Recall, ATL 737B, SLC 737B, SLC M90B, merger..SLC 320B.
Sorry you had it so rough. The pilot shortage and 1500 hr rule are gonna be huge windfalls for any RJ Captain hired on the front of the wave. You won the lottery, but you still want to ***** about having to buy a ticket.
RJ Captains didn't have any problems upgrading in a few years and logging a decades worth of TPIC on the backs of mainline furloughees.
RJ Captains at Comair didn't have any problems cashing Strike Assesment checks as mainline pilots honored their struck work out of CVG and tried to reduce the pay gap by making Comair pilots the highest paid RJ Captains in the industry.
RJ Captains didn't have any problem refusing to allow furloughed mainline pilots to get hired in the RIGHT seat at Comair in exchange of preferred interviews at DAL unless the lists were merged and all scope provisions were eliminated.
RJ Captains didn't have a problem supporting the RJDC to sue mainline ALPA.
RJ Captains didn't have a problem flying to the 121 max for the lowest bidder as long as they got to fly new, bigger turbine aircraft on routes that used to be flown by mainline 737, 727, M88, DC9 pilots.
Rj Captains didn't have any problem flying legacy passengers hub to hub, laying over in FCA, MSO, JAC and then non-revving with their families in first class to Paris while they made an average of $100k a year.
RJ Captains didn't have a problem using their thousands of hours of PIC to shop around for a SWA/JBLU/Frontier/Spirit/Allegiant/Suncountry/ect. job but then enjoy a flow-thru agreement to DAL and get a class date just weeks after our final furloughees get back to the line after a decade without their ID badge.
Sorry Junglebus. You just got hired at Delta, right? You better save the "on the backs of RJ pilots" for APC..'cause it ain't gonna fly when you're talking smack around 15 yr FO's who are still waiting for a chance to move to the left seat.
Here's what I've been doing while you've been an RJ Captain;
DFW 727C, SLC 727B, SLC 73NB..9/11..DFW M90B, CVG M88B, Furlough...Recall, ATL 737B, SLC 737B, SLC M90B, merger..SLC 320B.
Sorry you had it so rough. The pilot shortage and 1500 hr rule are gonna be huge windfalls for any RJ Captain hired on the front of the wave. You won the lottery, but you still want to ***** about having to buy a ticket.
02-14-2014, 08:14 PM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
02-14-2014, 08:17 PM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
02-14-2014, 08:21 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
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