Sink r8

T,

Maybe this is what I was failing to consider:

On a flight where there is < 6:00 hours from TOC to TOD (I'm assuming :30 and 1:00), IOW block < 7:30, you cannot give everyone 2:00, so you cannot have all breaks the same.

OTOH, you can't comply with the requirement of have the PF rest 2 hours in the 2nd 1/2 of the FDP AND keep 2nd break, without some pretty gross imbalance, which I guess was your original point.

Timbo

Here's a question, why does the "Relief Pilot" get any break at all??

He's only there to -Relieve- the other two pilots so they can get some rest. They are doing the actual flying, not him, right? So why should he get the same break as the two "Flying Pilots"?

Discuss...

(FTB, can you give me a emoticon of a hornet's nest being smacked with a stick?)

Sink r8

So... using a hypothetical flight, blocked at 7:10, including :30 taxi-out, and :10 taxi-in.

FDP = 1:30 brief + 7:10 block = 8:40
Flight time = 6:30
Time available for breaks = 5:00
Time required for PF = 2:00
Time available to be split between PM and relief = 3:00
Time required for PM = 1:30
Time remaining for RP = 1:30

FDP midpoint is 4:20 before block-in, 4:10 before landing. The FP break must start NET 4:10 before landing. Take out 1 hour where everyone must be back in their seat. That leaves 3:10 between the earliest start of the PF break, and the end of the 3rd break.

If you want the PF to have 2nd break, the maximum available for 3rd break is 1:10. PM needs 1:30 minimum, so PM cannot have third break (according to CFR 117).

Unless you want to claim that having the PM take 1st break is an intelligent chance, I don't see how you could comply with the new regs without shifting PF to 3rd break.

Am I missing something?

Sink r8

Makes sense to me. As long as he gets a free pass on anything he screws up during the flight. If there is no responsibility to get him rested, surely there is no responsibility for him to be awake at his seat, right?

Gross navigational error? Wasn't me: I was just relieving.

Timbo

Why would you have 3 pilots on a flight less than 8 hours? Or is this part of the new 117?

Timbo

Some of the other carriers don't use 3 type rated pilots, only 2, and the Relief Pilot is a Cruise (only) pilot, so how do they do their breaks? Does the Cruise Pilot get a break? Is he ever responsible for a gross navigational error? I think not. He's a radio operator.

scambo1

In this hypothetical, you only have 3 pilots because they are blocking over 8 hours on the return leg. Having breaks for a flight less than 8 hours is not a concern of the FAR or DAL. So, when doing your calculations and examples, all hypotheticals should have a block time over 8 hours.

Sink r8

Good question, Timbo. I was thinking about shorter than expected legs, based on tailwinds, like EWR-AMS in the winter. For argument's sake, let's say your rotation shows 8:01.

Which brings up a good question: is the FDP calculated on the rotation, or the expected block in for a particular day.

Sink r8

Same answer as for Timbo, to a good point by Scambo. Let's say your rotation shows 8:01, but your block time on the release shows 7:10.

So I'm counter-hypotheticalling you.

Scoop

So one of your concerns is the flight is too short to each have a 2:00 break? Damm, I need to bid INTL FO ASAP!

Scoop