Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-15-2014, 05:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 767A
Posts: 791
The problem I see arising is on the shorter flights sometimes the breaks are less than 2 hours.
01-15-2014, 05:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: On the hotel shuttle
Posts: 5,918
Another amusing "there is my opinion, and then there is the wrong one" view. Just because you prefer 12-hour min layovers doesn't mean that anyone not sharing your opinion doesn't "value his health."
The new 10 hour hard minimum layover is reasonable. The rules under part 121 were not.
The new 10 hour hard minimum layover is reasonable. The rules under part 121 were not.
My opinion (worth exactly what you're paying to read it): A pilot who prefers less than 12 hours' rest may think he values his health, or may not care. I think that getting 9 hours of sleep and a decent breakfast (ie: 12-hrs minimum) is a bare minimum to maintain a semblance of health in this very unhealthy profession. Smokers may value their health, too. It doesn't mean they have a clue.
Last edited by GogglesPisano; 01-15-2014 at 05:17 AM.
01-15-2014, 05:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Right Seat over the CONUS
Posts: 326
Here is the FAA,s first word on the subject.
Carriers will be required to provide their crew with a 10-hour rest opportunityprior to commencing a duty period that includes flying. While the 10-rest period may include the amount of time it takes to get to or from a flightcrew member's house or hotel room, the actual amount of time required for a sleep opportunity may not be reduced
below 8 hours. In addition, the length of continuous time off during a 7-day period has been extended from 24 hours under the existing rules to 30 hours. Additional time off is required for individuals whose internal clock may be off because of flipping back and
forth between different time zones.
The fact that the FAA clarified the above to mean 10 hours off but not less then 8 hours in the room is not DALPA's fault.
They didn't say 8 hours in the room from your own quote.
"Opportunity" - a set of circumstances that makes it possible to do something
If I'm not in my room, ready for bed; my circumstance to goto bed has not been meet.
This is what I will use!!! I hope our union can stand behind us.
Last edited by LOBO; 01-15-2014 at 05:44 AM.
01-15-2014, 05:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 7ER Capt
Posts: 461
I don't believe there is an attorney in the land, that could successfully argue post-incident, that the crew had the opportunity for 8hrs sleep with only 8hrs "behind the door"
Obviously, we will not agree on this interpretation.
I only wish my union would agree with this common sense interpretation and get this crystal clear in our favor... for once.
Obviously, we will not agree on this interpretation.
I only wish my union would agree with this common sense interpretation and get this crystal clear in our favor... for once.
01-15-2014, 05:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 767A
Posts: 791
I don't see where it says "behind the door". Sleep is sleep. Not getting ready for bed... not getting ready to go to work.
I don't accept less than 9hrs "behind the door". That gives me and my crew a half hour to get ready for bed and a half hour to get ready for work. That gives one a minimum of 8hrs sleep.
I did that before 117 and I'll do that now.
If my reps are not on board with this, they are not "scheduling with safety... period. I'll be contacting my reps today.
I don't accept less than 9hrs "behind the door". That gives me and my crew a half hour to get ready for bed and a half hour to get ready for work. That gives one a minimum of 8hrs sleep.
I did that before 117 and I'll do that now.
If my reps are not on board with this, they are not "scheduling with safety... period. I'll be contacting my reps today.
Back in the AF, sometimes we couldn't get mx to fix a recurring gripe...until we wrote it up off station. When it affects the operation, it gets noticed.
01-15-2014, 05:22 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
I don't believe there is an attorney in the land, that could successfully argue post-incident, that the crew had the opportunity for 8hrs sleep with only 8hrs "behind the door"
Obviously, we will not agree on this interpretation.
I only wish my union would agree with this common sense interpretation and get this crystal clear in our favor... for once.
Obviously, we will not agree on this interpretation.
I only wish my union would agree with this common sense interpretation and get this crystal clear in our favor... for once.
01-15-2014, 05:35 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Here is the FAA's first communication on the subject. ALPA is simply telling you what the FAA has explained to them. ALPA has spent far more time and effort trying to insure its pilots are in compliance then any other union. I know you think their efforts have been terrible but that's your opinion. I have received a huge amount of communication from the union on 117. They have written a excellent app to help with compliance. They had trained people in every lounge I went into the first week. They set up a 24 hour 117 hotline. They have aggressively pushed the FAA to clarify gray areas and published timely answers when they have come out. I Jumpseat on many airlines. The non ALPA airlines have received nothing even remotely close to what ALPA has done.
Here is the FAA,s first word on the subject.
Carriers will be required to provide their crew with a 10-hour rest opportunityprior to commencing a duty period that includes flying. While the 10-rest period may include the amount of time it takes to get to or from a flightcrew member's house or hotel room, the actual amount of time required for a sleep opportunity may not be reduced
below 8 hours. In addition, the length of continuous time off during a 7-day period has been extended from 24 hours under the existing rules to 30 hours. Additional time off is required for individuals whose internal clock may be off because of flipping back and
forth between different time zones.
The fact that the FAA clarified the above to mean 10 hours off but not less then 8 hours in the room is not DALPA's fault.
Carriers will be required to provide their crew with a 10-hour rest opportunityprior to commencing a duty period that includes flying. While the 10-rest period may include the amount of time it takes to get to or from a flightcrew member's house or hotel room, the actual amount of time required for a sleep opportunity may not be reduced
below 8 hours. In addition, the length of continuous time off during a 7-day period has been extended from 24 hours under the existing rules to 30 hours. Additional time off is required for individuals whose internal clock may be off because of flipping back and
forth between different time zones.
The fact that the FAA clarified the above to mean 10 hours off but not less then 8 hours in the room is not DALPA's fault.
What it DOES say (and so does the FAR) is that an opportunity for 8 hours of sleep is required. It's impossible for any human being to get 8 hours of sleep with only 8 hours in the room. Therefore, our contractual "8 hours behind the door" is a clear violation of FAR 117.
Sailingfun, please answer the following two questions. Answer them with a "yes" or "no." And then explain to me how exactly 8 hours behind the door is legal:
1 - If you only have 8 hours in a hotel room (from walking into the room to walking out of the room the next morning), do you have an opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep?
2 - Does FAR 117 require an opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep?
01-15-2014, 05:43 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Not exactly. We still have the minimum 10 hour layover per FAR 117. They can't schedule it (and it can't be) any less than that. I don't expect the 8 hours behind the door to be an issue under normal circumstances. The 10 hour layover should allow a good 9+ hours in the room in most cases. It's the unusual circumstances (like a major snow storm where ground transportation to the hotel takes a lot longer than normal) where the 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity will become a factor.
01-15-2014, 06:17 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
So, when an "I need 8 hour call" occurs, why not call them after you're fed & in bed? Then start the time when you hang up?
People hate the unknown and want an answer before the shutdown checklist is complete. This is a "you got plenty of time" bucket thing. Go to your hotel, make sure they have a room (it is always on the short layovers that they act like it is a total surprise that a Delta pilot is there) get settled in, THEN CALL.
A call to a local restaurant that delivers can save you time. If you have room mates, make sure they are ready for sleep as well.
People hate the unknown and want an answer before the shutdown checklist is complete. This is a "you got plenty of time" bucket thing. Go to your hotel, make sure they have a room (it is always on the short layovers that they act like it is a total surprise that a Delta pilot is there) get settled in, THEN CALL.
A call to a local restaurant that delivers can save you time. If you have room mates, make sure they are ready for sleep as well.
01-15-2014, 06:27 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
So, when an "I need 8 hour call" occurs, why not call them after you're fed & in bed? Then start the time when you hang up?
People hate the unknown and want an answer before the shutdown checklist is complete. This is a "you got plenty of time" bucket thing. Go to your hotel, make sure they have a room (it is always on the short layovers that they act like it is a total surprise that a Delta pilot is there) get settled in, THEN CALL.
People hate the unknown and want an answer before the shutdown checklist is complete. This is a "you got plenty of time" bucket thing. Go to your hotel, make sure they have a room (it is always on the short layovers that they act like it is a total surprise that a Delta pilot is there) get settled in, THEN CALL.
Oh, and those two (or is it four?) don't look ready for sleep.
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