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01-14-2014, 02:43 PM

#146681

DAL 88 Driver

At home on the maddog!

Joined APC: Mar 2009

Position: ATL MD-88A

Posts: 2,874

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun

One key point of the rule is if you do not feel you have the rest you require then don't fly the leg.

If you only have "8 hours behind the door," you do NOT have the opportunity for 8 hours of sleep. No way, no how. At that point, it doesn't matter how you feel... you are in violation of FAR 117.

01-14-2014, 02:52 PM

#146682

dalad

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Joined APC: Nov 2009

Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+

Posts: 1,278

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

If you only have "8 hours behind the door," you do NOT have the opportunity for 8 hours of sleep. No way, no how. At that point, it doesn't matter how you feel... you are in violation of FAR 117.

I agree with you on this. You need at least 9 behind the door.

01-14-2014, 02:54 PM

#146683

GogglesPisano

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Joined APC: Sep 2013

Position: On the hotel shuttle

Posts: 5,903

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun

One key point of the rule is if you do not feel you have the rest you require then don't fly the leg.

Yeah. Because that's always been an effective catch-all in our "mission-oriented" culture. Guys will always be reluctant to call in fatigued, even when they are fatigued, due to a myriad of reasons (paperwork, letting down then rest of the crew, potential "meeting.") I don't see how 117 changes that. An absolute minimum 12-hr rest would have made 117 a lot more effective.

01-14-2014, 02:56 PM

#146684

RockyBoy

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Joined APC: Jun 2007

Posts: 2,598

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun

DALPA's information comes from the FAA's interpretation of their rule. I don't think anyone is going to get violated. One key point of the rule is if you do not feel you have the rest you require then don't fly the leg.

Hasn't that always been the rule? I don't think that calling in fatigued just showed up with 117.

01-14-2014, 02:59 PM

#146685

flyallnite

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Joined APC: Dec 2009

Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!

Posts: 1,898

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyBoy

Hasn't that always been the rule? I don't think that calling in fatigued just showed up with 117.

Isn't there a difference here though? Calling in fatigued is one thing. Not having the required 8 hour SOT is another. You may not feel fatigued, but without the 8 hour SOT, you are violating the new FAR.

01-14-2014, 03:01 PM

#146686

RockyBoy

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Joined APC: Jun 2007

Posts: 2,598

Quote:

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano

An absolute minimum 12-hr rest would have made 117 a lot more effective.

^^^^^YES^^^^^

Instead we have up to 9 hours block, same duty day lengths (except they can be extended easier), and the same length of layovers.

01-14-2014, 03:27 PM

#146687

boog123

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Joined APC: Dec 2009

Position: Capt

Posts: 2,049

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyBoy

^^^^^YES^^^^^

Instead we have up to 9 hours block, same duty day lengths (except they can be extended easier), and the same length of layovers.

+1, not feeling it so far

Last edited by boog123; 01-14-2014 at 03:37 PM.

01-14-2014, 03:30 PM

#146688

DAL 88 Driver

At home on the maddog!

Joined APC: Mar 2009

Position: ATL MD-88A

Posts: 2,874

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyBoy

^^^^^YES^^^^^

Instead we have up to 9 hours block, same duty day lengths (except they can be extended easier), and the same length of layovers.

Not quite. The minimum layover is now 10 hours... and you have to have the opportunity to get 8 hours of sleep. That's a big improvement over what we had before. The rest of FAR 117, not so much... I'm not all that impressed with it so far.

01-14-2014, 03:37 PM

#146689

sailingfun

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Joined APC: Feb 2008

Posts: 19,574

Quote:

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano

Then you would have pilots screaming on here about all the low time trips. A 12 hour min layover would cause havoc with trip construction. 30 hour layovers jumped substantially when we got 8 hours behind the door. Every change has consequences.

01-14-2014, 03:40 PM

#146690

FIIGMO

Sho me da money!

Joined APC: Feb 2007

Position: B25, Left

Posts: 947

I think I already know the answer to this one, but with 117 a reserve pilot can no longer commute in the day of a reserve assignment correct? I believe CASS would be able to document movement prior to a reserve assignment thus prove a rest violation.

Just asking!