Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-18-2013, 05:12 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
[/B]
I agree with you on that narrow point, however the problem is the law has changed. What was once legal is now illegal. Ask yourself this - does our contract trump the FARs? No it does not. Do you really think the Union would win this as a grievance?
Our argument would essentially be that our reserves no longer have to legally acknowledge any assignments since our contract lets us wait until 3 hours prior to report - good luck with that.
Don't get me wrong - this is the companies problem not ours -They had plenty of time to prepare for 117 and they totally blew it - too bad for them. That does not mean that we should bury our head in the sand and keep going back to our contract which has now been superseded by federal law.
SDs interpretation was totally bogus, but I believe that both he and the union are now negotiating in public and I predict that something will be worked out.
I just hope we leverage it into something useful.
Scoop
I agree with you on that narrow point, however the problem is the law has changed. What was once legal is now illegal. Ask yourself this - does our contract trump the FARs? No it does not. Do you really think the Union would win this as a grievance?
Our argument would essentially be that our reserves no longer have to legally acknowledge any assignments since our contract lets us wait until 3 hours prior to report - good luck with that.
Don't get me wrong - this is the companies problem not ours -They had plenty of time to prepare for 117 and they totally blew it - too bad for them. That does not mean that we should bury our head in the sand and keep going back to our contract which has now been superseded by federal law.
SDs interpretation was totally bogus, but I believe that both he and the union are now negotiating in public and I predict that something will be worked out.
I just hope we leverage it into something useful.
Scoop
12-18-2013, 05:15 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
you're going to need to show me how it's "illegal" because i'm just not seeing it. Where in part 117 does it say i must acknowledge an assignment nlt 10 hours prior to report, otherwise i am breaking the law?
If i am assigned a trip or sc without being given 10 hours of rest prior, then that violates part 117. If i don't acknowledge an assignment nlt 10 hours to report, i haven't broken any regs. I simply can no longer be legally rested for the assignment. If i fly the trip without 10 hour rest, then i would be breaking regs. But failing to acknowledge a trip nlt 10 hours prior to report isn't illegal.
Have you seen any kind of documentation that confirms this portion of our contract is now null and void? Until the company provides proof, i'll continue to fly me contract.
I'm not trying to bust your balls here. I'm just trying to understand your point of view.
If i am assigned a trip or sc without being given 10 hours of rest prior, then that violates part 117. If i don't acknowledge an assignment nlt 10 hours to report, i haven't broken any regs. I simply can no longer be legally rested for the assignment. If i fly the trip without 10 hour rest, then i would be breaking regs. But failing to acknowledge a trip nlt 10 hours prior to report isn't illegal.
Have you seen any kind of documentation that confirms this portion of our contract is now null and void? Until the company provides proof, i'll continue to fly me contract.
I'm not trying to bust your balls here. I'm just trying to understand your point of view.
12-18-2013, 05:35 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: On the hotel shuttle
Posts: 5,917
So the above says CBT is training. And 117 says "Duty means any task that a flightcrew member performs as required by the certificate holder, including but not limited to flight duty period, flight duty, pre- and post-flight duties, administrative work, TRAINING, deadhead transportation, aircraft positioning on the ground, aircraft loading, and aircraft servicing."
Soooooo.......Under 117 could I inform the company that I refuse to do my cbt "under my own volition" and require them to schedule a training duty period to complete the CD? In that case under the PWA, would I have to be compensated for a training day (what is it now...3:45?) instead of the standard approx. :50 minutes?
Thoughts?
Soooooo.......Under 117 could I inform the company that I refuse to do my cbt "under my own volition" and require them to schedule a training duty period to complete the CD? In that case under the PWA, would I have to be compensated for a training day (what is it now...3:45?) instead of the standard approx. :50 minutes?
Thoughts?
Seriously, this falls into the common sense category. The Company is not requiring you to accomplish your CBT at a specific time (only giving you 2-month deadline.) Taking your argument to the extreme, the FAA could prohibit CBT and bidding and ASAP reporting within 10 hours of a report -- but obviously that is not the intent of 117.
12-18-2013, 07:42 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Then that is even worse for the company. Its far superior for scheduling if we are allowed to be out of contact for 9 hours and then need 10 hours after that versus waiting until 3 hours prior to acknowledge a trip and then needing 10 hours rest, which would automatically drop the trip.
19 hour long call isn't as convenient as 12 for the company, but its infinitely superior for them than untouchable/automatic trip drop due to legality long call.
This is actually a huge opportunity for "constructive engagement" or whatever. Maybe we can compromise and codify a 15 hour long call with a 5 hour rolling "leash" for acknolwdgement and add an extra 15 minutes a day pay/credit for vacation. Either way, its up to us and our reps to negotiate for improvements on this. Letting the company put out its own helmet fire by lining through our contract and penciling in its most favorable fantasy interpretation is something we simply cannot allow.
There is ample opportunity to provide relief to the company to keep the operation running smoothly (provided they staff appropriately) while obtaining substantial QOL improvemenes for our reserves and remaining legal per the FAR's.
19 hour long call isn't as convenient as 12 for the company, but its infinitely superior for them than untouchable/automatic trip drop due to legality long call.
This is actually a huge opportunity for "constructive engagement" or whatever. Maybe we can compromise and codify a 15 hour long call with a 5 hour rolling "leash" for acknolwdgement and add an extra 15 minutes a day pay/credit for vacation. Either way, its up to us and our reps to negotiate for improvements on this. Letting the company put out its own helmet fire by lining through our contract and penciling in its most favorable fantasy interpretation is something we simply cannot allow.
There is ample opportunity to provide relief to the company to keep the operation running smoothly (provided they staff appropriately) while obtaining substantial QOL improvemenes for our reserves and remaining legal per the FAR's.
Remember the days when work rules actually got better each contract? The Vulcan mind meld managements all across the industry have put on pilots believing we should be happy to just keep status quo or continue losing ground in bite after bite is sad. Anybody remember trip touching and how many paid days off that produced? Things have really bottomed out since then. Let's see if the outcome is sold as a win and turns out actually being a win or sold as a win not really being a win (devil, details and all).
Last edited by Jack Bauer; 12-18-2013 at 08:05 PM.
12-18-2013, 07:57 PM
meh
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
Jack
You are correct sir.
Scoop your characterization of our pea rules as now being "illegal" is incorrect and a misuse of the word. It is merely in conflict with the cheapest company-desired resolution.
You are correct sir.
Scoop your characterization of our pea rules as now being "illegal" is incorrect and a misuse of the word. It is merely in conflict with the cheapest company-desired resolution.
12-18-2013, 09:41 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 7,000
Our contract is now in conflict with the FARs - you can characterize it however you want. I give up on this subject - all we can do is wait and see anyway.
By the way, just because I do not deny this conflict as some do, does not mean I support the companies desired answer to this issue - SD's proposed solution is a joke. If his proposed solution is the best the company can do, they better be prepared to fly the January schedule without reserve Pilots.
Scoop
12-18-2013, 10:20 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
I think you have it backwards - the ability to turn your phone off for 9 hours is derived from the fact that long call reserves have until 3 hours prior to report to acknowledge an assignment. Not the other way around. There is actually nothing in our PWA that specifically says you can be out of contact for 9 hours when on reserve.
Of course the end result is the same
And, per ALPA, your interpretation is essentially correct.
Of course the end result is the same
And, per ALPA, your interpretation is essentially correct.
12-19-2013, 12:59 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: DAL Pilot
Posts: 1,133
12-19-2013, 03:14 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
To all you guys that "like" the longer long call window...you do realize 1 jan, domestic long call is 12 hours and intl is 14. So, a longer long call window is a concession. Going in, the company objectively needs a 19 hour leash guy to comply with the minimum...the far min, the pwa min, the rested min...AND, that is to cover the one and only golden BB trip that that pilot can be rested for.
In effect, the company is entering 1 January without reserve pilots...I don't know why, but no one has chewed on my GSWC proposal, not even to flesh it out...am I to assume that everyone was a "rocker?"
This is a gigantic hole the company has to fill, and most of you folks are talking like a concession would fill it for you and you'd be happy. I really am fuzzy on why.
In effect, the company is entering 1 January without reserve pilots...I don't know why, but no one has chewed on my GSWC proposal, not even to flesh it out...am I to assume that everyone was a "rocker?"
This is a gigantic hole the company has to fill, and most of you folks are talking like a concession would fill it for you and you'd be happy. I really am fuzzy on why.
12-19-2013, 03:26 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 365
To all you guys that "like" the longer long call window...you do realize 1 jan, domestic long call is 12 hours and intl is 14. So, a longer long call window is a concession. Going in, the company objectively needs a 19 hour leash guy to comply with the minimum...the far min, the pwa min, the rested min...AND, that is to cover the one and only golden BB trip that that pilot can be rested for.
In effect, the company is entering 1 January without reserve pilots...I don't know why, but no one has chewed on my GSWC proposal, not even to flesh it out...am I to assume that everyone was a "rocker?"
This is a gigantic hole the company has to fill, and most of you folks are talking like a concession would fill it for you and you'd be happy. I really am fuzzy on why.
In effect, the company is entering 1 January without reserve pilots...I don't know why, but no one has chewed on my GSWC proposal, not even to flesh it out...am I to assume that everyone was a "rocker?"
This is a gigantic hole the company has to fill, and most of you folks are talking like a concession would fill it for you and you'd be happy. I really am fuzzy on why.
The issue is the leash on long call is being tightened or at least that is the wish of the company. In theory you are basically on a 2 hour leash to acknowledge a trip so you have 10 hours of rest per 117 new requirement. Going to 16 or 19 hours would not be a concession it would be a benefit, especially to commuters.
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