Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-09-2013, 09:56 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,036
I completely agree. If it weren't for the legion of pilots saying "but guys will fly sick", then maybe it'd have a shot in the next contract. Hopefully people will realize that this is possibly the most onerous contractual provision we've ever seen at Delta, and push for change. I'd prefer a FedEx type of program, where your unused hours can purchase days off, be rolled into 401K, or just paid out. You earned it, after all!
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 12-09-2013 at 10:26 AM.
12-09-2013, 10:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Yep ... and management needs to stop calling legitimate sick leave use "theft." Given what we're paid, they're stating pilots are unconvicted felons.
Maybe Check Essential could fill us in on the details of how we get out from under the grievance process and just take these rascals to Fulton State Court? I'd love to get these so called managers in front of a jury to discuss how a guy who does not take prescriptions of any kind all of a sudden goes to a Doc, gets prescribed antibiotics and somehow is not verifiably "sick." Ask which member of a jury would like to fly back to Atlanta on a red eye knowing the "sick" guy is going to make the landing and will be doing so solo if the other pilot has a medical issue.
Then, lets talk about the allegation that the sick pilot committed "theft."
Maybe Check Essential could fill us in on the details of how we get out from under the grievance process and just take these rascals to Fulton State Court? I'd love to get these so called managers in front of a jury to discuss how a guy who does not take prescriptions of any kind all of a sudden goes to a Doc, gets prescribed antibiotics and somehow is not verifiably "sick." Ask which member of a jury would like to fly back to Atlanta on a red eye knowing the "sick" guy is going to make the landing and will be doing so solo if the other pilot has a medical issue.
Then, lets talk about the allegation that the sick pilot committed "theft."
Get ready for a long section 6
12-09-2013, 10:03 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: Boeing Boss
Posts: 335
That is an exaggeration, and you know it.
That is incorrect.
Who gives the CP the list? ALPA, or an over zealous manager on the 4th floor? Why should a CP's complaint about stupid things they are forced to do be a concern of ours?
Are you suggesting that each pilot has no say or accountability in their sick calls? Really? ALPA doesn't issue our Medicals. The FAA does. If you don't meet the medical requirements, call in sick. If Delta won't pay you for it, contact ALPA. Unless you are suggesting that no employee has ever called in sick when they weren't actually sick, then perhaps this would be a good time to acknowledge that employers have the right to verify some sick call occurrences - at this airline, and at others.
Can you post which FAR guarantees our pay when we call in sick? If Delta is making you fly after you tell them you are sick, that might be a good time to call the FAA. But if you believe you should be calling the FAA because Delta is making you verify a sick call, or because Delta is not paying you for sick time, you might not fully understand the FAA's role in this.
That is incorrect.
Are you suggesting that each pilot has no say or accountability in their sick calls? Really? ALPA doesn't issue our Medicals. The FAA does. If you don't meet the medical requirements, call in sick. If Delta won't pay you for it, contact ALPA. Unless you are suggesting that no employee has ever called in sick when they weren't actually sick, then perhaps this would be a good time to acknowledge that employers have the right to verify some sick call occurrences - at this airline, and at others.
Can you post which FAR guarantees our pay when we call in sick? If Delta is making you fly after you tell them you are sick, that might be a good time to call the FAA. But if you believe you should be calling the FAA because Delta is making you verify a sick call, or because Delta is not paying you for sick time, you might not fully understand the FAA's role in this.
12-09-2013, 10:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 488
23.S.5. A long call pilot:
b. must be able to report for an assigned rotation which reports no earlier than 12 hours from the first attempted contact by Crew Scheduling.
c. must be able to report for a rotation within 12 hours of first attempted contact for conversion to short call.
What SD was basically saying in his letter was this - if you don't acknowledge your assignment outside the 10 hour window then you are no longer "able to report for an assigned rotation" and are therefore in violation of 23.S.5.b. So even if you follow the contractual acknowledgement guidance to the letter, you can still be in violation of the contract
At first blush, I was thinking ALPA had the leverage here. Now, I'm not so sure
b. must be able to report for an assigned rotation which reports no earlier than 12 hours from the first attempted contact by Crew Scheduling.
c. must be able to report for a rotation within 12 hours of first attempted contact for conversion to short call.
What SD was basically saying in his letter was this - if you don't acknowledge your assignment outside the 10 hour window then you are no longer "able to report for an assigned rotation" and are therefore in violation of 23.S.5.b. So even if you follow the contractual acknowledgement guidance to the letter, you can still be in violation of the contract
At first blush, I was thinking ALPA had the leverage here. Now, I'm not so sure
Insisting on compliance with the contract on one part, ignoring it on another. Is the 3 hour prior part going to be defended by us or at minimum changed retaining benefit for us? Why would we have no leverage here? They are violating the 3 hour prior clause of the contract. Why do we have to give that up, and they keep their part?
As some other posters mentioned some pages ago, one way the FAR and "our" part of the contract can be complied with is by getting an assignment, having 9 hours to respond, then getting the the required 10 hours rest. Yes, this turns long call into a 19 hour deal, but one way that could be compensated for is by increasing the number of reserve pilots (hiring more), so they can have more on short call on any given day. Or another possible way is long call can be extended to say, 15 hours, allowing a time greater than 2 hours to respond. Of course they want to insist on implementing it per the sd letter for their benefit, which is to be expected.
Are we going to defend our part of the contract they want to ignore?
It appears from the case law that somebody posted pages back that an increase in costs due to regulatory change is not a valid reason for ignoring a contract (if I am remembering correctly). That seems like a good place to start on our part.
12-09-2013, 10:14 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: SLC ERB
Posts: 467
That appears to be in conflict with the requirements under Section 23.S.1 -
[A Reserve pilot will - ]
be required to check his schedule via DBMS or VRU:
1) after block-in of the last flight segment of his rotation prior to his release (see Section 12 G. 13. – 14.), and
2) no later than 0200 base time on his first on-call day following a non-fly day, so as to be able to acknowledge:
a) any assignment no later than three hours before a scheduled report of the rotation or start of a short call period, or
b) the start of a rest period.
Exception one: If such last non-fly day ends at a time other than 2400, the pilot will check his schedule no later than two hours after the end of such non-fly day. Exception two: For purposes of Section 23 S 1. d. 2), a non-fly day will not include a day on which the pilot is on vacation.
[A Reserve pilot will - ]
be required to check his schedule via DBMS or VRU:
1) after block-in of the last flight segment of his rotation prior to his release (see Section 12 G. 13. – 14.), and
2) no later than 0200 base time on his first on-call day following a non-fly day, so as to be able to acknowledge:
a) any assignment no later than three hours before a scheduled report of the rotation or start of a short call period, or
b) the start of a rest period.
Exception one: If such last non-fly day ends at a time other than 2400, the pilot will check his schedule no later than two hours after the end of such non-fly day. Exception two: For purposes of Section 23 S 1. d. 2), a non-fly day will not include a day on which the pilot is on vacation.
This contractual disconnect could be a MAJOR problem going forward with a bunch of pilots possibly being caught in the crossfire. SD's letter is not mandatory reading. I'm sure there are tons of guys out there who have been on reserve for years and who feel that they completely understand the nuances of their contractual requirements. If they didn't get/read/understand SD's email they could get burned.
12-09-2013, 10:18 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,036
Andoid is just a Linux distro.
Linux is secure enough to operate the International Space Station and is the basis for most (if not all) of the military use secure network infrastructure except for some that runs wild stuff like Intel iAPX 432. A big topic of conversation among security experts at the moment is whether any new hardware is secure. There is a lot of paranoia about the largest spying agency of them all, the US Government, having exploits that become systemic vulnerabilities once bad guys figure out how to employ them. That whole conversation goes over my head very quickly and I'm not sure the US Government could have people forcing chip makers to install vulnerabilities ... but then again, if someone had told me in the late 1960's that the US Government cared about who Martin Luther King got blow jobs from, I'd have thought them a bit nuts.
Anyway, anything is more secure than a Delta jet full of $10 an hour non english speaking outsourced employees with questionable credentials. If they can steal the candy (FA treats) out of my zipped shut bag down in my FO cubby hole, there isn't anything on that jet which is all that secure.
If it were me, I'd care less about EFB security and just build the thing so it was a push device with no PHP access back into the servers on the operations side. Use a screen with revision dates and let pilots verify, just as we do now. Delta's wanting to make this thing a lot more complicated than it need be to sell upper level management on the concept that it is not a "toy." Meanwhile, we build a 45 function Swiss Army Knife out of Unobtanium (which RT on ARM will be) when a butter knife is sufficient for buttering our bread.
Just my opinion and I'm uneducated on the status of the EFB program. Can't recall who posted that was working on the device. I'd would love to hear their opinion of MS's funeral notices for RT.
Frankly, something like this could do the job very cheaply and effectively. Good alternative to a cloud based software distribution. With this, the distribution gets a lot easier. Then it's just as easy as an enhanced BYOD.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...-20&ascsubtag=
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 12-09-2013 at 10:45 AM.
12-09-2013, 10:41 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: SLC ERB
Posts: 467
Again, they are leaning on the "able to report" requirement (also contractual). Being "able to report" includes, among other things, that you are legal to report. By not acknowledging an assignment outside the 10 hour window, YOU are making yourself illegal for the rotation - and therefore, "unable to report." That puts you in violation of the contract. They don't have to unilaterally change the contract to REQUIRE a 2 hour acknowledgment window - the "able to report" clause along with FAR 117 requirements, takes care of it for them.
And, yes, I did change my tune from some of my earlier posts. I'm not sure we have the leverage that I once thought - but I really, really hope I'm wrong.
12-09-2013, 10:42 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: Boeing Boss
Posts: 335
They obviously believe that ALPA agreed with them that reserves have 18 days on call, with 2 different "leashes". The new regs could result in reserves having less than 18 days on call.
If we agreed to 18 days, we should work with them to come up with a notification requirement that eliminates the contractual disconnects you mention. If we believe this is a huge windfall, and reserves should be able to shave off 3-4 days of on call because of the new regs, then the flt operations policy will lead us to an arbitration that we might win or lose, depending on how an arbitrator reads the contractual disconnects you mention.
12-09-2013, 10:46 AM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
I don't use much sick leave (knock on wood) and none since the new contract. Is the harassment really that prevalent or is this more of a forum phenomenon?
12-09-2013, 10:48 AM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
That would be true if you could fly any of those turns in 9 hours. There will be a few in the Caribbean that can be flown in 8:30. Probably only 2 or 3 max perhaps less. The company is using a 30 minute buffer. In JFK as a example there is a turn next month at 8:57. It is however doubled crewed to avoid the new hard time restriction.
On the domestic side there will be no turns. I am amazed at how often this keeps getting posted by experienced pilots. Simply go look at the block times from any East coast destination to the west coast.
JFK-LAX is just under 12 hours
JFK-SFO is over 12 hours
JFK-SLC over 10 hours
ATL-LAX is over 9 hours
There will not be any East Coast to West Coast turns. 9 hours does not allow for it. There might be some turns from DTW however even then I suspect you wont see it often. When you build trips if you pull the long legs out for turns it becomes very difficult to build the rest of the trips without increasing credit time. You could as a example build a ATL to Vegas turn. Its just a minute or two under 8:30. If you take those legs out of the trip mix for turns you more then likely see a increase in credit on other trips. You also run the risk of the crew going 32 minutes over on the first leg and having to cancel the 2nd leg. The whole oh my god we will be flying giant turns is much ado about nothing!
Even if they could fly all those cities as turns it has no effect on manning. Again this seems to be a urban legend. If you fly a 4 day trip doing transcon there is normally no credit in the trip. It takes the exact same number of pilots to fly it as a 4 day or as 2 turns. Manning is very simply. Block hours plus credit hours equals manning. Turns will have no impact on the block hour number and the long legged trips generally have no credit hence no change in manning.
On the domestic side there will be no turns. I am amazed at how often this keeps getting posted by experienced pilots. Simply go look at the block times from any East coast destination to the west coast.
JFK-LAX is just under 12 hours
JFK-SFO is over 12 hours
JFK-SLC over 10 hours
ATL-LAX is over 9 hours
There will not be any East Coast to West Coast turns. 9 hours does not allow for it. There might be some turns from DTW however even then I suspect you wont see it often. When you build trips if you pull the long legs out for turns it becomes very difficult to build the rest of the trips without increasing credit time. You could as a example build a ATL to Vegas turn. Its just a minute or two under 8:30. If you take those legs out of the trip mix for turns you more then likely see a increase in credit on other trips. You also run the risk of the crew going 32 minutes over on the first leg and having to cancel the 2nd leg. The whole oh my god we will be flying giant turns is much ado about nothing!
Even if they could fly all those cities as turns it has no effect on manning. Again this seems to be a urban legend. If you fly a 4 day trip doing transcon there is normally no credit in the trip. It takes the exact same number of pilots to fly it as a 4 day or as 2 turns. Manning is very simply. Block hours plus credit hours equals manning. Turns will have no impact on the block hour number and the long legged trips generally have no credit hence no change in manning.
Far west coast is out of the question still out of Atl,but it opens up a lot of the Caribbean and Central America that was once double crewed... As well as longer 3 and 4 leg days.
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