Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-06-2013, 06:20 PM
Gets Weekends Off
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I would also like to add that if we lose the downtown language, the company will probably only opt for hotels that provide transportation. I have worked for companies that do this (NWA post-bankruptcy was one). Don't mess with the downtown language. Our hotels are pretty good compared to other places I've worked.
12-06-2013, 06:24 PM
At home on the maddog!
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Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
88,
While I agree with you that the "downtown" language isn't optimal, the definition of "downtown" is pretty fluid IMO. CLT and RDU come to mind as two layovers that aren't technically downtown but are in a nice suburban area instead. Why we can't extend that concept to places like DAY, BHM, and TLH is beyond me. You would think the union and the company could easily find reasonable "short" and "long" hotels on a city by city basis without too much extra work. Like you said, though, "We've always done it this way..."
Nice flying with you the other day, btw.
While I agree with you that the "downtown" language isn't optimal, the definition of "downtown" is pretty fluid IMO. CLT and RDU come to mind as two layovers that aren't technically downtown but are in a nice suburban area instead. Why we can't extend that concept to places like DAY, BHM, and TLH is beyond me. You would think the union and the company could easily find reasonable "short" and "long" hotels on a city by city basis without too much extra work. Like you said, though, "We've always done it this way..."
Nice flying with you the other day, btw.
And you bring up an excellent point with CLT and RDU as examples. If our contract allows that, then why are we stuck in downtown DAY, RIC, etc. Even BDL (downtown Springfield) is a horrid layover on a Sunday (virtually nothing open but the Dunkin Donuts across the street behind the Marriott). There have got to be places similar to the CLT and RDU layovers in those other cities. Why the inconsistency??
12-06-2013, 06:28 PM
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Without addressing the transportation issue, which I agree with you is a very bad precedent to allow, Section 5.E.10 says that:
"A pilot scheduled for a layover of more than 12 hours (block-to-block) will receive lodging at a downtown hotel."
I don't think the company can unilaterally decide to change it to 15 hours.
But... see the "NOTE" under 5.E.10, which states:
"Exception one: Such lodging may be provided at a hotel in the vicinity of the airport if the MEC Hotel Committee has approved the use of such hotel in connection with the layover."
I guess the question is, did DALPA approve this? If they didn't, I don't see any way the change you describe is going to stick.
"A pilot scheduled for a layover of more than 12 hours (block-to-block) will receive lodging at a downtown hotel."
I don't think the company can unilaterally decide to change it to 15 hours.
But... see the "NOTE" under 5.E.10, which states:
"Exception one: Such lodging may be provided at a hotel in the vicinity of the airport if the MEC Hotel Committee has approved the use of such hotel in connection with the layover."
I guess the question is, did DALPA approve this? If they didn't, I don't see any way the change you describe is going to stick.
Yes, the Hotel Committee Chairman approved this change and as the PWA language is written it is at his concurrence so it could change again too. The MEC was briefed on this at the SEA meeting as well. It was based on pilot feedback.
12-06-2013, 06:29 PM
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I think if we removed the downtown requirement, we would end up getting totally boofed. We don't want to stay at the airport hotel on long layos, we want a "good location" if we're there for a long time. Now, how do you write in that requirement to the contract, considering all the different locations, city climates, and changing locales with time? If we get too specific, then in 2 years we'll want a different place, and when we try to change it then all the usual suspects as well as Delta will say, "What are you willing to give up for that new layover location?"
Therefore, using the term "downtown location" is PROBABLY the best compromise you can come up with, if you're going to have one phrase in place that tries to give us good locations without being overly specific resulting in screwage. I've thought about how I'd rewrite it, a lot, and IMO this is actually a pretty well written part of the contract--I'm VERY GLAD we have that downtown location clause in place.
Now, we DO have the ability to work out changes via the hotel committee chairman working with Delta, such as the 15 hour long layo in NYC. If you look at the DALPA hotel page, you'll see there are actually about 20 locations or more where the hotel chair has worked out long layo times different than 12 hrs--usually to our benefit, such as the NYC example. I think he might be able to work other location issues too, but.... why would he, and how would he please everyone? Example:
DTW long layo is now in the center of the hood, right on the river. I thought it would suxxor, didn't want it... but now I've been there, and yes the location is kinda dangerous at night, but-- I like the hotel, it's kinda it's own mall with food and movies right there. NOW I think it's a good place! So, with DTW as probably the most heinous example folks would say "No downtown!!", I guarantee if they changed it there would be a zillion pilots, ok 5 or so, who would complain. Some guys want to visit the big city, and NOT some cookie-cutter suburb. I'd hate to have someone start messing with my downtown SFO, PHL, SAN, LAS, SEA, LAX, PHX, etc. locations. So yeah, in this case I think the contract and ALPA's work in hotel area, is pretty good.
Now, I'll admit... a DTW layo in Ann Arbor near UM would be closer than downtown and better. And since Wayne County airport ISN'T actually in DTW, in fact it's in Romulus and closer to Ann Arbor, I think we could easily say "downtown = Ann Arbor for DTW, go Blue".
Therefore, using the term "downtown location" is PROBABLY the best compromise you can come up with, if you're going to have one phrase in place that tries to give us good locations without being overly specific resulting in screwage. I've thought about how I'd rewrite it, a lot, and IMO this is actually a pretty well written part of the contract--I'm VERY GLAD we have that downtown location clause in place.
Now, we DO have the ability to work out changes via the hotel committee chairman working with Delta, such as the 15 hour long layo in NYC. If you look at the DALPA hotel page, you'll see there are actually about 20 locations or more where the hotel chair has worked out long layo times different than 12 hrs--usually to our benefit, such as the NYC example. I think he might be able to work other location issues too, but.... why would he, and how would he please everyone? Example:
DTW long layo is now in the center of the hood, right on the river. I thought it would suxxor, didn't want it... but now I've been there, and yes the location is kinda dangerous at night, but-- I like the hotel, it's kinda it's own mall with food and movies right there. NOW I think it's a good place! So, with DTW as probably the most heinous example folks would say "No downtown!!", I guarantee if they changed it there would be a zillion pilots, ok 5 or so, who would complain. Some guys want to visit the big city, and NOT some cookie-cutter suburb. I'd hate to have someone start messing with my downtown SFO, PHL, SAN, LAS, SEA, LAX, PHX, etc. locations. So yeah, in this case I think the contract and ALPA's work in hotel area, is pretty good.
Now, I'll admit... a DTW layo in Ann Arbor near UM would be closer than downtown and better. And since Wayne County airport ISN'T actually in DTW, in fact it's in Romulus and closer to Ann Arbor, I think we could easily say "downtown = Ann Arbor for DTW, go Blue".
12-06-2013, 06:30 PM
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12-06-2013, 06:37 PM
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Posts: 612
What about the Crew Resources letter stating you "should" take the AirTran for the short layover for a pickup? What's up with that?
12-06-2013, 06:55 PM
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Weird how all the ones they add to compete with us are on 737s, and nearly all the ones we add to compete with them are on RJs.
12-06-2013, 07:37 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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RIC is a great point when it comes to hotels. The short RIC is in a fantastic place. It's got a free breakfast plus there's an Applebees, China King, Taco Bell, Longhorn Stakehouse, Bistro, Red Lobster, Cracker Barrel, McDonalds, Steak and Shake, 5 Guys, Chick-fil-A, TGI Fridays, Subway, Qdoba, Firehouse Subs, Starbucks plus Target, JC Penny, Sams Club, Lowes, Best Buy and all within walking distance and very safe.
Or you can go downtown which has a couple of places open during the week for lunch and a brewery/bar $$ nearby that everyone likes and then you can walk. If you're on the 88 or similar machine, you just need a place to rest, grab a bite, might even splurge and eat at a place with a waitress, and then go to bed. Maybe even take a jog in safety. To stay in places just because "there's a [or one] good bar" irritates me.
And don't get me started on PHF (when it was not all CRJ-200) and driving past the Patrick Henry mall area to Hampton. My high school was zoned for that area and for fun I looked the other day to see how my high school ranks... 3 out of 10. I was blown away, I didn't think it was that high. Why are we in such a desperate search for downtowns that don't exist?
BTW CLT is an awesome downtown, why aren't we there? And Albany? Are we still 30 minutes away if the drive does 80?
I know, fill out an FCR or something. But why? If those things mattered WE WOULD NOT STILL BE IN DOWNTOWN DAYTON! Not after the FCRs I wrote. I think the DAY overnight took me back the most because both the short and long were our RJ layovers and we complained bitterly about them then.
And another thing, there's this airport on the Panhandle in Florida that just built a really nice hotel in the parking lot... but oh no, let's go to the beach. Free breakfast?! 3 minute walk?! Meet you at the airplane? NO, I want to go to a 2 star resort 30 minutes away that's on the beach. Don't get me wrong, I love the beach, with my family. But if nursing an 88 around I just wanted a good hotel in a safe area with food options.
Or you can go downtown which has a couple of places open during the week for lunch and a brewery/bar $$ nearby that everyone likes and then you can walk. If you're on the 88 or similar machine, you just need a place to rest, grab a bite, might even splurge and eat at a place with a waitress, and then go to bed. Maybe even take a jog in safety. To stay in places just because "there's a [or one] good bar" irritates me.
And don't get me started on PHF (when it was not all CRJ-200) and driving past the Patrick Henry mall area to Hampton. My high school was zoned for that area and for fun I looked the other day to see how my high school ranks... 3 out of 10. I was blown away, I didn't think it was that high. Why are we in such a desperate search for downtowns that don't exist?
BTW CLT is an awesome downtown, why aren't we there? And Albany? Are we still 30 minutes away if the drive does 80?
I know, fill out an FCR or something. But why? If those things mattered WE WOULD NOT STILL BE IN DOWNTOWN DAYTON! Not after the FCRs I wrote. I think the DAY overnight took me back the most because both the short and long were our RJ layovers and we complained bitterly about them then.
And another thing, there's this airport on the Panhandle in Florida that just built a really nice hotel in the parking lot... but oh no, let's go to the beach. Free breakfast?! 3 minute walk?! Meet you at the airplane? NO, I want to go to a 2 star resort 30 minutes away that's on the beach. Don't get me wrong, I love the beach, with my family. But if nursing an 88 around I just wanted a good hotel in a safe area with food options.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 12-06-2013 at 07:50 PM.
12-06-2013, 07:42 PM
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
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Posts: 856
I would also like to add that if we lose the downtown language, the company will probably only opt for hotels that provide transportation. I have worked for companies that do this (NWA post-bankruptcy was one). Don't mess with the downtown language. Our hotels are pretty good compared to other places I've worked.
I'm sure Delta's hotel quality took a hit during bankruptcy as well. IMO the "downtown" language offers us little to no protection. As an example, there's a Motel 6 one block away from the Marriott Marquis in downtown Atlanta. That would satisfy the downtown requirement just as well as the Marquis. The Marquis is an amazing hotel, five star in every regard. The Motel 6, well not so much. At either hotel you can't walk out the front door without being harassed by people looking for a handout. On the other hand, a 10 minute drive on I-285 in either direction will get you a nice suburban location with plenty of eat/drink/workout options.
Our hotel language needs a serious rewrite. Taking accommodations out of the hands of a third party company and returning it to the union and the company would be a good start.
12-06-2013, 07:44 PM
Looking for a laugh
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Posts: 4,099
It's easy to say the company should just change hotels or move us here or there, but keep in mind that there is a restriction in play. That is actually finding a hotel that wants airline crew business. Believe it or not, but we aren't the most desirable guests. There are some hotels and hotel managers who would rather just pass on doing business with airlines. Once you take those properties out of the picture, some of the remaining options can be rather limited.
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