Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-10-2009, 11:56 AM
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Posts: 19,590
In the past, the union team has said, "Senior executives flatly refused our repeated proposals to operate 76-seat aircraft at the mainline with a competitive cost structure."
When our contract comes around for renewal and they ask for 100 seat flying, why can't we just say that WE flatly refuse to allow 100 seat flying at DCI. It's a two way street.
When our contract comes around for renewal and they ask for 100 seat flying, why can't we just say that WE flatly refuse to allow 100 seat flying at DCI. It's a two way street.
When the company said that we were already in court facing a 1113 motion. The company had just succeeded in replacing the inititial judge who at least gave the appearance of being labor friendly with a very anti labor judge. That gave the company enormous power and leverage. When you deal from a position of strength you can make demands.
When contract 2012 comes around hopefully circumstances will be quite different. We will certainly be in a better position then last time. How much better will depend on the economy.
I know the prevailing wisdom is the company will come after the 100 seater for DCI but frankly I will be surprised if it is even in their opening wish list. They may try and tinker with the number of 76 seaters in the opener but that will be it as a prediction. If they do open for 100 seats at DCI it will be as a throwaway item they hope to trade for something of value.
09-10-2009, 12:03 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,590
The 737-800 orders and options are all convertable to any version of the 737. There is a 100 seat version which is the -600. It is similiar to the Airbus 318. Neither aircraft is considered competitive. When you shrink a airframe down from a larger airframe you always end up with a overweight aircraft for the number of seats. That is why neither aircraft has any real sales.
Fuel is now 30 percent of the cost to operate a airframe. Over the life of any new aircraft purchased that number is expected to go to 50 percent. Fuel burn will be the driving factor on any new aircraft purchase. Based on that I would expect the Bombardier C series to be the front runner if Delta makes a 100 seat purchase.
Fuel is now 30 percent of the cost to operate a airframe. Over the life of any new aircraft purchased that number is expected to go to 50 percent. Fuel burn will be the driving factor on any new aircraft purchase. Based on that I would expect the Bombardier C series to be the front runner if Delta makes a 100 seat purchase.
09-10-2009, 12:08 PM
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Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
The 737-800 orders and options are all convertable to any version of the 737. There is a 100 seat version which is the -600. It is similiar to the Airbus 318. Neither aircraft is considered competitive. When you shrink a airframe down from a larger airframe you always end up with a overweight aircraft for the number of seats. That is why neither aircraft has any real sales.
Fuel is now 30 percent of the cost to operate a airframe. Over the life of any new aircraft purchased that number is expected to go to 50 percent. Fuel burn will be the driving factor on any new aircraft purchase. Based on that I would expect the Bombardier C series to be the front runner if Delta makes a 100 seat purchase.
Fuel is now 30 percent of the cost to operate a airframe. Over the life of any new aircraft purchased that number is expected to go to 50 percent. Fuel burn will be the driving factor on any new aircraft purchase. Based on that I would expect the Bombardier C series to be the front runner if Delta makes a 100 seat purchase.
09-10-2009, 12:16 PM
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Heyas ACL,
Interesting that people are focused on the 737-800. Isn't that a 140+ seater? If we're talking about a DC-9 replacement, you need a 319 or a 737-700, and really, that's only a -50 replacement. Since there are many more 319s/320s total than 737s, you'd think that's the way they'd go, and would keep in line with their philosophy of "2 or 3 manufacturers".
With that said, I think the 318 is a non-starter, but I have heard that it's being bounced around. With such a large Airbus fleet, the incremental cost of such bird MIGHT work, but I'm doubting it. Nothing good ever came from shrinking an airframe.
The problem with replacing the DC-9 is that you basically NEED a DC-9 to replace it. Something you can run 8-9 legs a day, day in and day out, every day for years on end. Just add fuel and it goes. Stone simple systems where anyone who can turn a wrench can fix. No APU or starter? Roll it down hill and let the clutch out. As much as I like the 717, it is a "gilded lilly". You don't need MD-11 EFIS/NAV systems in a 100 seater. A plain 6 pack panel, a GPS, a radar that works and a very simple EICAS to monitor in place of an annunciator panel. No voices, no electronic checklists, no autothrottles, no HUD, and no autoland will get you through %99 of your ops in any given year.
Of course, such an airplane would require experienced pilots to operate, and builders going for the export market have to build it to the lowest common demominator.
I'm no Airbus lover, but 2 seats up front is 2 seats, whether it's a Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier or heck, even Beechcraft.
Nu
Interesting that people are focused on the 737-800. Isn't that a 140+ seater? If we're talking about a DC-9 replacement, you need a 319 or a 737-700, and really, that's only a -50 replacement. Since there are many more 319s/320s total than 737s, you'd think that's the way they'd go, and would keep in line with their philosophy of "2 or 3 manufacturers".
With that said, I think the 318 is a non-starter, but I have heard that it's being bounced around. With such a large Airbus fleet, the incremental cost of such bird MIGHT work, but I'm doubting it. Nothing good ever came from shrinking an airframe.
The problem with replacing the DC-9 is that you basically NEED a DC-9 to replace it. Something you can run 8-9 legs a day, day in and day out, every day for years on end. Just add fuel and it goes. Stone simple systems where anyone who can turn a wrench can fix. No APU or starter? Roll it down hill and let the clutch out. As much as I like the 717, it is a "gilded lilly". You don't need MD-11 EFIS/NAV systems in a 100 seater. A plain 6 pack panel, a GPS, a radar that works and a very simple EICAS to monitor in place of an annunciator panel. No voices, no electronic checklists, no autothrottles, no HUD, and no autoland will get you through %99 of your ops in any given year.
Of course, such an airplane would require experienced pilots to operate, and builders going for the export market have to build it to the lowest common demominator.
I'm no Airbus lover, but 2 seats up front is 2 seats, whether it's a Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier or heck, even Beechcraft.
Nu
They say two to three for obvious reason IMHO. This info gets out, the manufactures hear it, other airlines hear it. It is done with great purpose.
It is my opinion that they are negotiating with AMR in public. It sounds like we have a final offer, it is not good enough to them, and we have told them we will walk. The have laughed, so now they are talking up the T-2,3,4 redo.
Just IMHO of course.
09-10-2009, 12:18 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
When the company said that we were already in court facing a 1113 motion. The company had just succeeded in replacing the inititial judge who at least gave the appearance of being labor friendly with a very anti labor judge. That gave the company enormous power and leverage. When you deal from a position of strength you can make demands.
When contract 2012 comes around hopefully circumstances will be quite different. We will certainly be in a better position then last time. How much better will depend on the economy.
I know the prevailing wisdom is the company will come after the 100 seater for DCI but frankly I will be surprised if it is even in their opening wish list. They may try and tinker with the number of 76 seaters in the opener but that will be it as a prediction. If they do open for 100 seats at DCI it will be as a throwaway item they hope to trade for something of value.
When contract 2012 comes around hopefully circumstances will be quite different. We will certainly be in a better position then last time. How much better will depend on the economy.
I know the prevailing wisdom is the company will come after the 100 seater for DCI but frankly I will be surprised if it is even in their opening wish list. They may try and tinker with the number of 76 seaters in the opener but that will be it as a prediction. If they do open for 100 seats at DCI it will be as a throwaway item they hope to trade for something of value.
09-10-2009, 12:30 PM
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Position: CRJ Captain
Posts: 1,406
09-10-2009, 12:36 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
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Posts: 18,563
I mean that they would not fully expect us to jump on that one.
09-10-2009, 01:08 PM
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,902
The problem is that there are always large outfits willing to do the flying. I'm very sure the company will "fish" to see where the scope limit is (if any).
Even if you hold the line on scope, or, god forbid, even reclaim some of it, as long as there are large wet lease providers actively soliciting the flying, you're going to have pressure.
The interesting thing is you could bury the whole regional industry if there was a concerted, APA style push to reclaim the flying. Without any flying to do, those companies like Skywest, Mesa, Pinnacle and others would either have to try to do the independent thing (and we see where that goes), or fold up.
With the oursourcers put down, and without the readily available lift, the scope pressure would be MUCH less, because the company wouldn't have their boogeyman on their speed dial.
Nu
09-10-2009, 01:25 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: CRJ Captain
Posts: 1,406
Heyas ACL,
The problem is that there are always large outfits willing to do the flying. I'm very sure the company will "fish" to see where the scope limit is (if any).
Even if you hold the line on scope, or, god forbid, even reclaim some of it, as long as there are large wet lease providers actively soliciting the flying, you're going to have pressure.
The interesting thing is you could bury the whole regional industry if there was a concerted, APA style push to reclaim the flying. Without any flying to do, those companies like Skywest, Mesa, Pinnacle and others would either have to try to do the independent thing (and we see where that goes), or fold up.
With the oursourcers put down, and without the readily available lift, the scope pressure would be MUCH less, because the company wouldn't have their boogeyman on their speed dial.
Nu
The problem is that there are always large outfits willing to do the flying. I'm very sure the company will "fish" to see where the scope limit is (if any).
Even if you hold the line on scope, or, god forbid, even reclaim some of it, as long as there are large wet lease providers actively soliciting the flying, you're going to have pressure.
The interesting thing is you could bury the whole regional industry if there was a concerted, APA style push to reclaim the flying. Without any flying to do, those companies like Skywest, Mesa, Pinnacle and others would either have to try to do the independent thing (and we see where that goes), or fold up.
With the oursourcers put down, and without the readily available lift, the scope pressure would be MUCH less, because the company wouldn't have their boogeyman on their speed dial.
Nu
09-10-2009, 01:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Well JP Morgan upgraded UAUA & LCC & their stock is skyrocketing. Apparently they feel BOTH will escape BK.
Shares of United Airlines parent UAL Corp. (UAUA: 7.8, 1.35, 20.93%) and U.S. Airways (LCC: 4.09, 0.509, 14.21%) soared double-digit percentages Thursday morning after the airlines were reportedly upgraded by analysts at JPMorgan Chase.
According to Dow Jones Newswires, JPMorgan analysts upgraded UAL to “overweight” from “underweight” and lifted U.S. Airways to “neutral.”
“We now expected winter to pass with nary a bankruptcy in sight,” JPMorgan analysts wrote in a note, according to the wire service.
The bank also reportedly said revenue trends the past two months have been “modestly” better than expected and predicted air travel trends will “bounce around” until January when it assumes “gradual improvement begins.”
Shares of U.S. Airways soared 15% to $4.12, trimming its loss of more than 50% so far in 2009. Meanwhile, UAL saw its stock surge 21% to $7.81 but it remains down more than 41% year-to-date.
Despite expectations for improving air travel trends, JPMorgan downgraded JetBlue (JBLU: 6.16, 0.1, 1.65%) and AirTran (AAI: 6.73, 0.13, 1.97%) from “overweight” to “neutral.”
Shares of United Airlines parent UAL Corp. (UAUA: 7.8, 1.35, 20.93%) and U.S. Airways (LCC: 4.09, 0.509, 14.21%) soared double-digit percentages Thursday morning after the airlines were reportedly upgraded by analysts at JPMorgan Chase.
According to Dow Jones Newswires, JPMorgan analysts upgraded UAL to “overweight” from “underweight” and lifted U.S. Airways to “neutral.”
“We now expected winter to pass with nary a bankruptcy in sight,” JPMorgan analysts wrote in a note, according to the wire service.
The bank also reportedly said revenue trends the past two months have been “modestly” better than expected and predicted air travel trends will “bounce around” until January when it assumes “gradual improvement begins.”
Shares of U.S. Airways soared 15% to $4.12, trimming its loss of more than 50% so far in 2009. Meanwhile, UAL saw its stock surge 21% to $7.81 but it remains down more than 41% year-to-date.
Despite expectations for improving air travel trends, JPMorgan downgraded JetBlue (JBLU: 6.16, 0.1, 1.65%) and AirTran (AAI: 6.73, 0.13, 1.97%) from “overweight” to “neutral.”
Or I could be all wet...
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