Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-14-2013, 07:01 PM
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11-14-2013, 07:22 PM
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Incorrect. The ALPA that existed when my career began was a great example. I worked under a number of ALPA contracts where there were NO concessions. Negotiations were about how much the gains would be. This concept of giving up something for every gain is a relatively new thing.
See above. The point is that you've made a patently false claim that 'ANY union would'.
Nobody gets everything they want. But that's an entirely different question than giving concessions. Bankruptcy has normalized the management dream of changing our mentalities to believe any gain must be funded by a concession.
He's not naive. You're just so weakened by what you've been told to believe, it's scary for you to hear opposing views. The rocking chair measured followership skills...not leadership skills.
Carl
See above. The point is that you've made a patently false claim that 'ANY union would'.
He's not naive. You're just so weakened by what you've been told to believe, it's scary for you to hear opposing views. The rocking chair measured followership skills...not leadership skills.
Carl
11-14-2013, 07:25 PM
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Absolutely. I am not saying that it should be an equal transaction. We should get more than we give, but to say that we should be able to negotiate a contract without ANY give is ridiculous, dangerous and stupid. We should be garnering more on our side of the ledger, but there will always be something that will be given up. EVERYTHING is negotiable. everything. Of course, we could use the DPA ideals, say no and follow the APA model. WE'll catch up to where we COULD have been in another 7 or 8 years, but if you are willing to wait, I certainly am too.
Carl
11-14-2013, 07:29 PM
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11-14-2013, 07:40 PM
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Sad to see some pilots' mentality slump to this level. Is there any wonder why our profession has fallen so severely. Our own members sound like managers.
Sigh.
Carl
11-14-2013, 07:40 PM
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11-14-2013, 07:49 PM
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But oh how they scream when they are portrayed the way they actually behave. It's a very bipolar-like mentality.
Carl
11-14-2013, 09:35 PM
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Not even close. First of all Hawaiian went through just before Delta. They did not hand over their pension like we did and came out with far better pay rates and work rules. How you might ask is that possible. They had the fortitude and grit to reject the first proposal. They deemed it onerous even with the same threats flying at them from their management as we were getting from DALPA. Namely, that what the judge will hand down will be considerably worse.
AMR, much better. The only airline that did worse was USAirways. And get this, they did worse than us because they went through BK twice! 2002 and 2004. So if you look at all the airlines that went through once, then we came out the worst.
[/QUOTE]I could live with modest additional payrate increases IF the rest of the contract was cleaned up considerably. The reverse is not true.[/QUOTE]
Really. You will except modest pay rate increases if the contract were as you say, cleaned up? First, the contract that needs to be considerably "cleaned up" was a result of our BK. The same one we did so poorly in compared to the other pilot groups.
Remember you lost pay, work rules and your pension. Considering the pension is not coming back, settling for a "modest" pay raises in exchange for getting work rules back that were extracted in BK is out right defeatist in nature.
Getting back what was lost in BK is never going to happen just with proactive engagement. We have to have some back bone and ask for it back. Management opened with 0, zero % raise in their expedited push in 2012. They set the expectation at the table. We got 4-8-3-3.
AMR, much better. The only airline that did worse was USAirways. And get this, they did worse than us because they went through BK twice! 2002 and 2004. So if you look at all the airlines that went through once, then we came out the worst.
[/QUOTE]I could live with modest additional payrate increases IF the rest of the contract was cleaned up considerably. The reverse is not true.[/QUOTE]
Really. You will except modest pay rate increases if the contract were as you say, cleaned up? First, the contract that needs to be considerably "cleaned up" was a result of our BK. The same one we did so poorly in compared to the other pilot groups.
Remember you lost pay, work rules and your pension. Considering the pension is not coming back, settling for a "modest" pay raises in exchange for getting work rules back that were extracted in BK is out right defeatist in nature.
Getting back what was lost in BK is never going to happen just with proactive engagement. We have to have some back bone and ask for it back. Management opened with 0, zero % raise in their expedited push in 2012. They set the expectation at the table. We got 4-8-3-3.
Last edited by TheManager; 11-14-2013 at 09:47 PM.
11-14-2013, 11:26 PM
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This is where I think you go a bit off track. I think negotiations are not about emotion but about leverage. We didn't have any in bankruptcy. As a matter of fact I would say we had "negative leverage" then. It's not about emotion or what was fair our unfair. It's about what you can negotiate.
Denny
Denny
It is also off track in the same way that nearly most guys on here are when they talk about leverage and which factors effect negotiations.
The bottom line is that when there are thousands of people lining up to do the same job as you for less pay and benefits, you have no leverage.
When your union represents the people who are undercutting you, you've got an even bigger problem.
11-15-2013, 12:04 AM
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Update for commuter flight schedules websites-- passrider.com seemed the best before, but I see that it does NOT display codeshares as one flight... basically every flight it has is replicated 4 or 5 times in the list showing different airlines owning it. For instance, the same flight is shown as Delta 4516, Virgin Atlantic xxxx, Korean xxxx, China Air xxxx, Alaska xxxx. You have to be able to read between the lines to see that instead of 72 flights between a city pair, there are only 7. This is very annoying, as it's easy to make a mistake and who wants to read through 72 flights to check if they're all valid?
Still looking for "the best" flight schedules website that shows everything including SWA, doesn't spam prices all over, and auto-correlates codeshares. Passrider.comm has the best display so far, but it needs codeshare correlation like Kayak has.
Still looking for "the best" flight schedules website that shows everything including SWA, doesn't spam prices all over, and auto-correlates codeshares. Passrider.comm has the best display so far, but it needs codeshare correlation like Kayak has.
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