acl65pilot

Good post.

I also think that you are aware that many of the people who are vocal are not emotional. Frankly, I do not necessarily look at what is good for just me. I look at what is good for the men and women that are above and below me. I got a long time left here, and what I want is for the people I work with to be happy they work for Delta Air Lines, and that they are proud of the direction their Association is talking them.
What I currently see is a bunch of pilots that what to see a shift in the way things have been going. They have been really going this way since C2K was signed in mid 2001. It took a few years for the buzz to wear off for many, but the junior folks felt it real quick.
Our fellow pilots I talk to do not frame their ideas in six, twelve, twenty-four, or thirty-month frames. They are looking at what they could afford, and what their assumptions were six years ago versus today. I agree that there was a time where Delta Pilots would not do that small jet flying, well the times have changed. The Delta pilots I talk to want their union to go after that flying. Well, as a union that represents the pilots of Delta, is DALPA listening or are they telling these with emotion that they are wrong.

We can do better. We will always do better. People attack the top because they do not like what they see. If they are so dead wrong, educate the rank and file as to what is really going on. Communicate the Associations direction, and goals. If you want to get the support of the group, you have to allow them the information to make an informed decision. All things I am hearing.

I want our MEC to be liked, because if they are liked, they are doing the will of the majority of the pilots. After all that is their job.

slowplay

Tomcat,

Please show me the condescension in my post.

Can you point to an emotional pilot group that has better results?

I'll be happy to change horses when someone shows me a better way. Their way has to based on facts, not emotion, and has to produce results. No "Hopeium" allowed.

thrustsetrj200

I'm sure some of you would be happy to know that as of today Delta has announced that 13 additional Mesaba Saab leases will be terminated and sent back to Saab starting Feb 2010. That equals at least 130 more furloughs for Mesaba. That makes for a total of about 260 Mesaba Pilots furloughed.

Fly4hire

The difference is whether we put in on the table or the judge does. It's a high stakes game of chicken, and in both NWA and DAL's case we pulled off the road long before we saw the whites of their eyes.

The assumption is that the judge will automatically side with managment and give you something worse than you could negotiate yourself. Maintain control of your own future, etc, etc. In NWA case we negotiated and the F/A's held fast and the judge did not impose a far worse contract. We looked pretty stupid and had we taken Scope as well as the negotiated TA off the table, using the F/A's example, we would have had a better contract than our TA.

The fear factor, and the MEC use of it during 1113 is a powerful tool. Do you want the terrible contract you do know, or the risk of a possibly better or worse one imposed? Tough call, and I don't ding anyone for taking the known under those circumstances, but the fact is we put Scope in play ourselves not knowing what the judge would have done.

Bucking Bar

Don't be that way. We're not "happy" to hear about furloughs.

The point of good scope is to keep people in their jobs.

The market is just being unkind to small, short range flying. By the time a passenger goes through security & waits they could have half way driven to their destination.

Chente

Thank you! I have been saying this since we signed our code share with Alaska. I dont get it, I really dont....We need to have a bigger presence on the West Coast if we really want to consider ourselves the "Premier Global Airline"
Delta says we dont make money on the west coast in the sense that it's hard to compete???? Yet like someone mentioned earlier, Virgin America comes in and is fairly successful fairly quickly???? Again, I dont get it.

Tomcat

I find it amusing that you can't hear the smallest bit of condencention in the "tone" of your post, but you quick paint the pilot group with the broad label of being emotional.

Perhaps, if one of our guys is emotional about an issue, we should listen and address the issue and not try to make him feel isolated in a public forum. I know you have the ability to communicate your message more effectively. We can do a better job as a union. Some things you guys have done very effectively and some issues have not received the attention they need.

I am not advocating "changing horses".

Will you answer one question for me? What did we gain by giving up on the 70 seat "line in the sand"? The reason I ask, is I wonder what we would it take for our union to give away the 100 seat flying. See, you may call it emotional, but I still have not gotten over Lee telling me twice, face to face that would would not allow anyone other than Delta pilots to fly anything over 70 seats. Weeks later, the MEC told me the same thing in a large public forum. Do you think I'm being emotional because I'm asking for these answers? Is it emotional that I have some trust issues with our MEC. I don't think so. I think my attitude is trust, but verify. Please give me a straight answer to these questions. How can we know where we're going if we don't understand where we've been.

TC

alfaromeo

I enjoy having spirited discussions with you, and Bucking Bar, and SatChip, and others about this. I hope DALPA is listening, I really think they get it. Perhaps there needs to be better communication, that is always a valid point if the message is not getting through. I just don't get the attack part. DALPA is just a bunch of ordinary pilots trying to do their best for the rest of the group. If they aren't doing what you want then communicate that to your reps in a calm professional manner. It will always go over much better than emotional attacks. Just because that is how politics is played out in our society today, that doesn't mean we have to stoop to their level. Glenn Beck and Keith Olberman are not good role models.

It is good that there is a broad field running for Council 44, that is good for the union. For those that are running, just remember that there are other issues out there besides scope. I don't want to bust any bubbles, but I guarantee that the number one concern of pilots right now is pay. It is not reflected on the webboards but that is a self selecting population that is very vocal. I would guess at least 80% of Delta pilots put pay as their number one concern. Scope and retirement would be fighting for a distant second. We all want democracy, but the will of the majority is not determined by who shouts the loudest. That is a mob (like those town hall meetings). Democracy is listening to all the people you represent.

What I object to is the personalization of the discussion (not directed at you but at others). Lee Moak is just one part of the team. He is a very important part, but he would be the first to say that if he were replaced the team would move on. He doesn't spend a nanosecond worrying about recall. He would just bid his schedule and go have lattes in Paris and then spend a lot more time at home with his family. He would burn his Blackberry.

Some people have become obsessed that all their problems reside in this one person. I have seen immature reactions based on an MEC Chairman as either the source of all good or all bad. This is just not the case. Without a strong team, an MEC Chairman is worthless. Without a functioning MEC that puts the pilots above personal politics the Chairman is greatly handicapped. Being part of the team means that once the team decides, you put your silly personal pride away and support the team. It is not about "me, me, me".

That is why I urge a strong business like approach to problem solving. Emotional, personal politics fails almost every time.

DAWGS

Ruffling a few feathers. Reminds me of Buzz calling in Ron and his possy. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. You guys seem to be more interested in protecting your power than protecting Delta pilots. All issues come down to what we have done (this administration) vs. what they (other administrations) have done. What bothers me most is we should have been at the point of "enough" a long time ago. Scope has obviously diteriorated over the past decade. I know that. It is inexcusable to allow it to continue. It's like the bully continuing to push you around. The very last straw for me was not taking the greviance to arbitration. The "we stand to lose more" attitude. That doesn't inspire me. Either scope is not important to this administration or they really think we could have lost more in arbitration. Either way it is a lack of leadership in my opinion. You always stand to lose something when you fight. Also it was done under the radar of the reps and they didn't react as I think they should have.

As far as 1113, let me paint a different picture than those who all say the demise of our airline was at hand if we didn't walk from the table. When the negotiators came back from the company and say its all great, done deal, except we want the 76 seater or 1113. My opinion is we should have walked, gathered up everything, lockers were already cleaned out and put all the talk into action. I personally think the company was not going to tear this company apart over the 76 seater. I think we should've called their bluff. This administration took the first offer when the real negotiating started (to use a little real estate reference-you made it so simple for my immature junior mind to understand). The company knew then what we now know, which is scope is not that important to this administration and we would negotiate it away, which is exactly what happened. USair hadn't happened yet and maybe the company comes back if they really think we are going to strike. There are countless possibilities which all included risk. This administration runs from risk. You have to lay it out there when it is worth fighting for. It is worth fighting for to me.

I am sure you think you know exactly how it would've turned out if we would have walked. What you think would have happened is as much as a guess as mine. The difference is I and probably the majority would've have gladly taken on the risky path if we would have been lead by the right men.

I have witnessed a once great airline turn into something its founders never would have stood for. We are the checks and balances. We have to be willing to protect the corporation long term. Management seems to look from quarter to quarter and the people in power (DALPA) don't seem to understand the average junior immature line pilot. Did I show enough of a grown up face for you?

Tomcat

Good post. I agree with all you have to say. Now I specifically mention Lee in some of my posts. Two reasons; he is the face of DALPA, good and bad and secondly when Lee tells me something, I take him at his word. Now if the MEC can't hold firm on an issue, I don't believe that it is unreasonable for the MEC or Lee to tell us what we gained by giving on a particular issue. This is part of the issue with scope. Perhaps the union officer may know exactly how all the horse trading went, but the line pilot wants to know how some of these things went down.