Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-09-2013, 09:15 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
10-09-2013, 09:18 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I've never been a "just say No" kind of guy. That's not a strategy.
But your willingness for appeasement, in the face of record profits, after gutting our pay and retirement plans to attain those record profits, is not a strategy either, not if you ever want to restore the profession, or reclaim our pay/retirement money now being given out as Dividends.
And as Buzz points out, we are not UAL/CAL or AA/USA.
Someone has to be at the top of the pay/benefits pyramid, I think it should be Delta, not Fed Ex, not SWA. BUT... are YOU willing to strike to achieve significant gains? That's always been the real question. Most Delta guys aren't ready or willing to walk away.
Why not?
Well, what did you think that rocking chair was for?
Delta hires a risk averse personality type, that has been proven over and over. How I slipped through is anyone's guess, the Doc. must have been drunk that day. But if you aren't willing to stand up for yourself, and at least try to reclaim the sacrifices we have made in pay and retirement, then come time to renegotiating our next contract, well, you might as well bend over, again, and say,
"Thank you sir, may I have another?"
3%?
For the next two years?
Paid for by reducing our profit sharing by 33% in the highest profit years?
GMAFB.
But your willingness for appeasement, in the face of record profits, after gutting our pay and retirement plans to attain those record profits, is not a strategy either, not if you ever want to restore the profession, or reclaim our pay/retirement money now being given out as Dividends.
And as Buzz points out, we are not UAL/CAL or AA/USA.
Someone has to be at the top of the pay/benefits pyramid, I think it should be Delta, not Fed Ex, not SWA. BUT... are YOU willing to strike to achieve significant gains? That's always been the real question. Most Delta guys aren't ready or willing to walk away.
Why not?
Well, what did you think that rocking chair was for?
Delta hires a risk averse personality type, that has been proven over and over. How I slipped through is anyone's guess, the Doc. must have been drunk that day. But if you aren't willing to stand up for yourself, and at least try to reclaim the sacrifices we have made in pay and retirement, then come time to renegotiating our next contract, well, you might as well bend over, again, and say,
"Thank you sir, may I have another?"
3%?
For the next two years?
Paid for by reducing our profit sharing by 33% in the highest profit years?
GMAFB.
Carl
10-09-2013, 09:21 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
Timbo,
I think your description of the process leading up to contract 2001 is fairly accurate but leaves out one key ingredient as to how we got the payrates then and that's the payrate at United. Didn't we pattern bargain off their rates at the time?
As I see it, we can likely negotiate to be the highest paid pilots in the industry with the next contract. What I don't see is us getting $100+ an hour more than our competition. Don't get me wrong, I would love it and I think the company could afford it now but they will refuse, we will become deadlocked and the NMB will park us a la AA.
How do we get around this dilemma? That is the question for anyone out in APC land. I'm all for huge raises but how do we get past the NMB?
Denny
I think your description of the process leading up to contract 2001 is fairly accurate but leaves out one key ingredient as to how we got the payrates then and that's the payrate at United. Didn't we pattern bargain off their rates at the time?
As I see it, we can likely negotiate to be the highest paid pilots in the industry with the next contract. What I don't see is us getting $100+ an hour more than our competition. Don't get me wrong, I would love it and I think the company could afford it now but they will refuse, we will become deadlocked and the NMB will park us a la AA.
How do we get around this dilemma? That is the question for anyone out in APC land. I'm all for huge raises but how do we get past the NMB?
Denny
Now, on the whole NMB thing. This is why we need National ALPA representation, vs. DPA. This is why we need PAC dollars. We need to politically persuade the guys who write the laws, to change them to our favor, or at least stop favoring management so heavily. Put a cap on the parking thing, make it 6 months max, then released to self help.
If that won't work, then we need National to start talking about a nation wide SOS, all ALPA carriers, for a week or so. Let the politicians drive from DC to their condos in Palm Beach. See if that gets their attention.
The problem with going down that road is, the politicians will quickly be looking to sell our jobs to China, India and the UAE, for more $$$$ into their re-election campaigns. Heck, they are looking to sell us out right now.
Why there was never a call for a National SOS after 9-11, when all our pay was being cut and our pensions being flushed is beyond me. I said back then, as soon as Delta filed bankruptcy and gutted our contract, we should have all filed for bankruptcy too. If for no other reason than to put a media spotlight on what was going on with our pay/pensions.
Until management and the politicians believe we are ready and willing to use the nuclear option, we will always be giving more than we are getting in contract negotiations. Since I've been working here (and long before I came along) every pay raise was coupled with concessions in other areas of the new contract. We are always giving away scope, benefits, work rules, manning formulas, etc. in exchange for pay rates...and as soon as the company starts losing money, we'll give the pay rates back too.
10-09-2013, 09:32 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: "Prof" button manipulator
Posts: 1,685
First, you were the one that brought up DPA. Or perhaps you just like to talk about "holes." An oral fixation, perhaps? Or anal? :eek
GJ
10-09-2013, 10:21 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,907
10-09-2013, 10:37 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: "Prof" button manipulator
Posts: 1,685
Wow. Way to stay classy....
Thanks Nu, look forward to your "fair & balanced" posting soon.
GJ
10-09-2013, 10:44 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: A330
Posts: 216
JS international
Do we still have to flow to the back for INTL jumpseats?
The flight I'm looking at next week is oversold and I'm hoping to still be able to go. How do they deal with a DAL jumpseater?
The flight I'm looking at next week is oversold and I'm hoping to still be able to go. How do they deal with a DAL jumpseater?
10-09-2013, 10:52 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Well, first off, we stop comparing our pay to the other bankrupt airlines, when we are no longer bankrupt. We should have set SWA's 737 pay rate as our starting point, for our 737's and worked our way up through the other fleets from there.
We all believe we are worth more and we are. Not only us but other carriers too. The problem is getting either management (preferably) or the NMB to agree with us. Dalpa can stop comparing ourselves to other carriers but we are only one party of essentially a 3 party negotiation of which 2 parties are going to compare us to other carriers no matter what we say or do.
Now, on the whole NMB thing. This is why we need National ALPA representation, vs. DPA. This is why we need PAC dollars. We need to politically persuade the guys who write the laws, to change them to our favor, or at least stop favoring management so heavily. Put a cap on the parking thing, make it 6 months max, then released to self help.
I couldn't agree more!
If that won't work, then we need National to start talking about a nation wide SOS, all ALPA carriers, for a week or so. Let the politicians drive from DC to their condos in Palm Beach. See if that gets their attention.
I could get behind this idea.
The problem with going down that road is, the politicians will quickly be looking to sell our jobs to China, India and the UAE, for more $$$$ into their re-election campaigns. Heck, they are looking to sell us out right now.
That's possible but it would certainly take time and in the meantime, might just bring some light on the issue. But, lets face it, the general public isn't going to have a lot of sympathy for us...
Why there was never a call for a National SOS after 9-11, when all our pay was being cut and our pensions being flushed is beyond me. I said back then, as soon as Delta filed bankruptcy and gutted our contract, we should have all filed for bankruptcy too. If for no other reason than to put a media spotlight on what was going on with our pay/pensions.
Until management and the politicians believe we are ready and willing to use the nuclear option, we will always be giving more than we are getting in contract negotiations. Since I've been working here (and long before I came along) every pay raise was coupled with concessions in other areas of the new contract. We are always giving away scope, benefits, work rules, manning formulas, etc. in exchange for pay rates...and as soon as the company starts losing money, we'll give the pay rates back too.
Oh, I do think management and the politicians believe we would be willing to use the nuclear option. Hence the parking of AA over the years by the NMB. Now, as far as the Delta Pilots go, we do have a history of voting for any agreement. Maybe, if we did have the nuclear option available within a reasonable period, we might have a different outcome? Who knows... We need to have a clear path to that option otherwise we're a cat chasing its tail.
We all believe we are worth more and we are. Not only us but other carriers too. The problem is getting either management (preferably) or the NMB to agree with us. Dalpa can stop comparing ourselves to other carriers but we are only one party of essentially a 3 party negotiation of which 2 parties are going to compare us to other carriers no matter what we say or do.
Now, on the whole NMB thing. This is why we need National ALPA representation, vs. DPA. This is why we need PAC dollars. We need to politically persuade the guys who write the laws, to change them to our favor, or at least stop favoring management so heavily. Put a cap on the parking thing, make it 6 months max, then released to self help.
I couldn't agree more!
If that won't work, then we need National to start talking about a nation wide SOS, all ALPA carriers, for a week or so. Let the politicians drive from DC to their condos in Palm Beach. See if that gets their attention.
I could get behind this idea.
The problem with going down that road is, the politicians will quickly be looking to sell our jobs to China, India and the UAE, for more $$$$ into their re-election campaigns. Heck, they are looking to sell us out right now.
That's possible but it would certainly take time and in the meantime, might just bring some light on the issue. But, lets face it, the general public isn't going to have a lot of sympathy for us...
Why there was never a call for a National SOS after 9-11, when all our pay was being cut and our pensions being flushed is beyond me. I said back then, as soon as Delta filed bankruptcy and gutted our contract, we should have all filed for bankruptcy too. If for no other reason than to put a media spotlight on what was going on with our pay/pensions.
Until management and the politicians believe we are ready and willing to use the nuclear option, we will always be giving more than we are getting in contract negotiations. Since I've been working here (and long before I came along) every pay raise was coupled with concessions in other areas of the new contract. We are always giving away scope, benefits, work rules, manning formulas, etc. in exchange for pay rates...and as soon as the company starts losing money, we'll give the pay rates back too.
Oh, I do think management and the politicians believe we would be willing to use the nuclear option. Hence the parking of AA over the years by the NMB. Now, as far as the Delta Pilots go, we do have a history of voting for any agreement. Maybe, if we did have the nuclear option available within a reasonable period, we might have a different outcome? Who knows... We need to have a clear path to that option otherwise we're a cat chasing its tail.
Denny
10-09-2013, 10:56 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Denny
10-09-2013, 11:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 841
Looks like Etihad I'd going to get the AI 777LR's, and probably fly them to more USA destinations.
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