Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-09-2013, 08:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Driving to work & Looking Left @ the Surf!!
Posts: 727
10-09-2013, 08:03 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
777 Captains conversing during their 4-man brief:
Captain A) When I die, I hope I'm hit by a truck. Quick and painless.
Captain B) A Mack truck?
Captain A) Does it matter? A Ford Ranger would hurt too.
Captain B) I don't know about this truck thing. Mine is a massive heart attack on the upstroke, 2 strokes after I'm dead. Think about it.
Captain A) I don't think the 2007-2008 new hires get it.
Scambo) Hey, we have a New York based crew, they're new...
Captain B) Today's not a good day to die.
Captain A) I agree.
Scambo) Hey, uh, ya'll want to go for a wheel chair ride on the overnight?
Captain A) When I die, I hope I'm hit by a truck. Quick and painless.
Captain B) A Mack truck?
Captain A) Does it matter? A Ford Ranger would hurt too.
Captain B) I don't know about this truck thing. Mine is a massive heart attack on the upstroke, 2 strokes after I'm dead. Think about it.
Captain A) I don't think the 2007-2008 new hires get it.
Scambo) Hey, we have a New York based crew, they're new...
Captain B) Today's not a good day to die.
Captain A) I agree.
Scambo) Hey, uh, ya'll want to go for a wheel chair ride on the overnight?
10-09-2013, 08:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,902
Agreed.
...
You know, I'm going to throw a rock into our collective puddles here, but I want to know: why the hell does it matter what individuals want?
We always start out by making a list of demands (step in one on the path to disappointment), invariably put payrates up top, retirement second Scope, well, Scope egts sort of a glancing pass. Section 23 goes MIA.
Then we charge up the hill, get a little of the headline payrate number we asked for, and wonder what the happened.
...
What if we did this:
1) Establish an appropriate amount of flying that needs to be performed by the Delta pilots. FIGHT FOR THAT.
2) Establish an appropriate amount of total gains for the Delta pilots *. FIGHT FOR THAT OVERALL NUMBER / %.
3) Determine the appropriate fixes needed in our contract to make it acceptable to work under. This includes scheduling sections.
4) Determine the sort of medical plan a pilot actually requires to remain healthy for the long-term, and to stop subsidizing our own employment.
5) Determine other areas where we are subsidizing our employment, such as insufficient per-diem, uniforms, etc.
6) Determine what's left over. Apply that to payrate increases.
There really are only two things that truly matter: how much of the flying belongs to us, and how much of the revenue belongs to us. After we obtain this, we should fix our contract. After we do that, we should stop the bleeding of money via health insurance and other nickel-and-dime issues. At that point, our net would be higher already.
Only then should we arrive at payrate increases. These should be completely decoupled from an initial wish-list, or other airlines. The end result might be more than PD requires, or less. My point is that we should only fight for two things, and solve the details later. By invariably focusing on payrate headline numbers, we constantly fail to monitor concessionary trades, and we especially fail to worry about the total value of the deal. IOW, I think we might tend to be so short-sighted, that we leave money on the table.
I wonder if we should have a two-part contract negotiation, where we go to bat for a total number, and a proper amount of flying, then we poll the membership on how to apply these gains. Regardless of whether the nature of the gains should be baked into a TA, or not, I'm pretty convinced we're making a mistake by putting payrates at the top of the list. The total value of a contract is not determined by payrates alone. It's:
Advancement (meaning Scope gains + other contractual gains) + (credit * payrates) + any preferential tax treatment such as increasing DC contributions - Costs of employment
I'm tired of placing priorities negotiating backwards, and asking the wrong questions. It's not about how much you want for the boat, or the house, but about getting as much as we can, and leaving nothing on the table.
...
You know, I'm going to throw a rock into our collective puddles here, but I want to know: why the hell does it matter what individuals want?
We always start out by making a list of demands (step in one on the path to disappointment), invariably put payrates up top, retirement second Scope, well, Scope egts sort of a glancing pass. Section 23 goes MIA.
Then we charge up the hill, get a little of the headline payrate number we asked for, and wonder what the happened.
...
What if we did this:
1) Establish an appropriate amount of flying that needs to be performed by the Delta pilots. FIGHT FOR THAT.
2) Establish an appropriate amount of total gains for the Delta pilots *. FIGHT FOR THAT OVERALL NUMBER / %.
3) Determine the appropriate fixes needed in our contract to make it acceptable to work under. This includes scheduling sections.
4) Determine the sort of medical plan a pilot actually requires to remain healthy for the long-term, and to stop subsidizing our own employment.
5) Determine other areas where we are subsidizing our employment, such as insufficient per-diem, uniforms, etc.
6) Determine what's left over. Apply that to payrate increases.
There really are only two things that truly matter: how much of the flying belongs to us, and how much of the revenue belongs to us. After we obtain this, we should fix our contract. After we do that, we should stop the bleeding of money via health insurance and other nickel-and-dime issues. At that point, our net would be higher already.
Only then should we arrive at payrate increases. These should be completely decoupled from an initial wish-list, or other airlines. The end result might be more than PD requires, or less. My point is that we should only fight for two things, and solve the details later. By invariably focusing on payrate headline numbers, we constantly fail to monitor concessionary trades, and we especially fail to worry about the total value of the deal. IOW, I think we might tend to be so short-sighted, that we leave money on the table.
I wonder if we should have a two-part contract negotiation, where we go to bat for a total number, and a proper amount of flying, then we poll the membership on how to apply these gains. Regardless of whether the nature of the gains should be baked into a TA, or not, I'm pretty convinced we're making a mistake by putting payrates at the top of the list. The total value of a contract is not determined by payrates alone. It's:
Advancement (meaning Scope gains + other contractual gains) + (credit * payrates) + any preferential tax treatment such as increasing DC contributions - Costs of employment
I'm tired of placing priorities negotiating backwards, and asking the wrong questions. It's not about how much you want for the boat, or the house, but about getting as much as we can, and leaving nothing on the table.
Sink,
All of your observations are valid.
It is the individual MEC members that give direction to the negotiating committee during the "direction phase".
The key to the process is to have individual reps that are willing to step up, speak up and give direction in such a way that you get the other guys in the room to go along.
Some guys are happy with the ideas the NC suggests. Others are more "interactive", and press for goals that are important to their constituents, but may not be to other Councils. Some guys are good at building consensus, others try to force things through by force of will (or numbers).
You, as a member of an LEC, get to decide what kind of rep you send to speak for you. LEC elections get a remarkably low turn out, but it is the people that you send that ultimately make these decisions. I can't emphasize that enough.
You need to ask the right questions of anyone running for office, and make sure you're satisfied with the answers they give.
Nu
10-09-2013, 08:10 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Not exactly. I am saying it is only conjecture when someone says we left $ on the table, you never know where the bottom line actually is. With the pay rates at the other airlines at the time of our last contract I think we got pretty close to Richards bottom line but that is conjecture on my part.
I do believe that if AA/US goes through we will be in the best bargaining position since contract 2000. I know it is manly to say you don't care about other airlines but that is not the reality of the world we live in.
I do believe that if AA/US goes through we will be in the best bargaining position since contract 2000. I know it is manly to say you don't care about other airlines but that is not the reality of the world we live in.
I don't entirely disagree with you, it is possible that we got pretty much what we could get last go around. I'll never know. I did pretty decent last year...I finally exceeded my previous high 3 years which were around C2k.
However, there are a few issues I take with the C12 process and outcome. It was rushed, it was sold, it included concessions, it accepted bankruptcy pay as a new baseline, etc. But this discussion is not about the past.
To carry the past forward to C15, I have difficulty seeing how we are going to do appreciably better. We lost 3b6 so now we negotiate for our airplanes and help pay for them. I see that as a management trend going forward.
I agree completely with Timbo that the first billion of DAL profit came out of our pockets.
10-09-2013, 08:20 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
FTB, hilarious as always. I just flew with a fellow Plainsman ( how come you guys have so many mascots ?) and contemporary of yours. Probably the best prepared OE I've seen in years, he flew a good jet and (double bonus) he kept up with me on layover. He had really nice things to say about you
I ran out of space to post a Auburn pic.
10-09-2013, 08:24 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
Finis,
I don't entirely disagree with you, it is possible that we got pretty much what we could get last go around. I'll never know. I did pretty decent last year...I finally exceeded my previous high 3 years which were around C2k.
However, there are a few issues I take with the C12 process and outcome. It was rushed, it was sold, it included concessions, it accepted bankruptcy pay as a new baseline, etc. But this discussion is not about the past.
To carry the past forward to C15, I have difficulty seeing how we are going to do appreciably better. We lost 3b6 so now we negotiate for our airplanes and help pay for them. I see that as a management trend going forward.
I agree completely with Timbo that the first billion of DAL profit came out of our pockets.
I don't entirely disagree with you, it is possible that we got pretty much what we could get last go around. I'll never know. I did pretty decent last year...I finally exceeded my previous high 3 years which were around C2k.
However, there are a few issues I take with the C12 process and outcome. It was rushed, it was sold, it included concessions, it accepted bankruptcy pay as a new baseline, etc. But this discussion is not about the past.
To carry the past forward to C15, I have difficulty seeing how we are going to do appreciably better. We lost 3b6 so now we negotiate for our airplanes and help pay for them. I see that as a management trend going forward.
I agree completely with Timbo that the first billion of DAL profit came out of our pockets.
10-09-2013, 08:27 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
10-09-2013, 08:55 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
Originally Posted by Timbo View Post
If you guys want some REAL RAISES in 2015, we need to start getting prepared NOW! So when/where is the next Family Awareness meeting being held? I've done it before, I'd be happy to host the first one, this Friday night, at my house, there will be Torpedo's, Bushmills, sailboats and fishing. Bring the kids.
I'm retired, but I like Torpedo's, Bushmills, and sailboats. It's a short drive from St. Pete, can I come too?
If you guys want some REAL RAISES in 2015, we need to start getting prepared NOW! So when/where is the next Family Awareness meeting being held? I've done it before, I'd be happy to host the first one, this Friday night, at my house, there will be Torpedo's, Bushmills, sailboats and fishing. Bring the kids.
I'm retired, but I like Torpedo's, Bushmills, and sailboats. It's a short drive from St. Pete, can I come too?
Bring your battle star, the Delta guys will say, "Oooh, that's cool, how do I get one of those?"
10-09-2013, 09:03 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
Sorry Scambo, I managed to survive yet another bike ride! No near misses with semi-trucks but the mail man coming out of a driveway fast, with a bush obscuring our view of each other, nearly took me out!
If I had to chose a way to go, I guess it would be; shot in the back of the head, by a jealous husband....after the final stroke!
But with the trucks and old ladies in big cars, and now even the mail man gunning for me, that's probably how it will happen.
10-09-2013, 09:13 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Everything else being the same, what's the minimum (within reason) pay hike necessary? Carl
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