Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-09-2013, 07:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Absolutely,
I don't want to be greedy. But, I don't want to be restricted because the other groups aren't doing as well. When they get it together, they can use us as a way to catch up. (We can leave behind some breadcrumbs, or something, to show them the path.
)
Just because we are leading, doesn't mean we have to slow down.
I don't want to be greedy. But, I don't want to be restricted because the other groups aren't doing as well. When they get it together, they can use us as a way to catch up. (We can leave behind some breadcrumbs, or something, to show them the path.
) Just because we are leading, doesn't mean we have to slow down.
...
You know, I'm going to throw a rock into our collective puddles here, but I want to know: why the hell does it matter what individuals want?
We always start out by making a list of demands (step in one on the path to disappointment), invariably put payrates up top, retirement second Scope, well, Scope egts sort of a glancing pass. Section 23 goes MIA.
Then we charge up the hill, get a little of the headline payrate number we asked for, and wonder what the happened.
...
What if we did this:
1) Establish an appropriate amount of flying that needs to be performed by the Delta pilots. FIGHT FOR THAT.
2) Establish an appropriate amount of total gains for the Delta pilots *. FIGHT FOR THAT OVERALL NUMBER / %.
3) Determine the appropriate fixes needed in our contract to make it acceptable to work under. This includes scheduling sections.
4) Determine the sort of medical plan a pilot actually requires to remain healthy for the long-term, and to stop subsidizing our own employment.
5) Determine other areas where we are subsidizing our employment, such as insufficient per-diem, uniforms, etc.
6) Determine what's left over. Apply that to payrate increases.
There really are only two things that truly matter: how much of the flying belongs to us, and how much of the revenue belongs to us. After we obtain this, we should fix our contract. After we do that, we should stop the bleeding of money via health insurance and other nickel-and-dime issues. At that point, our net would be higher already.
Only then should we arrive at payrate increases. These should be completely decoupled from an initial wish-list, or other airlines. The end result might be more than PD requires, or less. My point is that we should only fight for two things, and solve the details later. By invariably focusing on payrate headline numbers, we constantly fail to monitor concessionary trades, and we especially fail to worry about the total value of the deal. IOW, I think we might tend to be so short-sighted, that we leave money on the table.
I wonder if we should have a two-part contract negotiation, where we go to bat for a total number, and a proper amount of flying, then we poll the membership on how to apply these gains. Regardless of whether the nature of the gains should be baked into a TA, or not, I'm pretty convinced we're making a mistake by putting payrates at the top of the list. The total value of a contract is not determined by payrates alone. It's:
Advancement (meaning Scope gains + other contractual gains) + (credit * payrates) + any preferential tax treatment such as increasing DC contributions - Costs of employment
I'm tired of placing priorities negotiating backwards, and asking the wrong questions. It's not about how much you want for the boat, or the house, but about getting as much as we can, and leaving nothing on the table.
10-09-2013, 07:17 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
I was doing some P2P work up in BOS during the run up to POS 96. I spent many days in the pilot lounge telling guys what a POS it was, and to vote NO!
When it was over, and it passed, I was LIVID! I voted NO, as did many others, but it did pass. I called the MEC office to scream at somebody, and the then DFW F/O rep (initials JM, I'm sure you know who) answered the phone, so I let him have it, "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING VOTING YES TO THIS POS??!!"
He told me he personally voted no, in the membership vote, but as a DFW LEC Rep he had to vote Yes, because he was getting 20 phone calls a day from DFW pilots begging him to vote yes!
He said they were saying, "I just bought a house, I can't afford a strike, please vote YES!" etc.
When I said, "What is the matter with these idiots? Didn't they see this coming and get prepared, financially?"
He said, "What did you think that rocking chair was for?"
True then, still true today. That's why DPA won't have any better success than DALPA, it's not about the leadership, it's about the followership!
Got to go to Bible Study now!
Oh wait, no I don't!
When it was over, and it passed, I was LIVID! I voted NO, as did many others, but it did pass. I called the MEC office to scream at somebody, and the then DFW F/O rep (initials JM, I'm sure you know who) answered the phone, so I let him have it, "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING VOTING YES TO THIS POS??!!"
He told me he personally voted no, in the membership vote, but as a DFW LEC Rep he had to vote Yes, because he was getting 20 phone calls a day from DFW pilots begging him to vote yes!
He said they were saying, "I just bought a house, I can't afford a strike, please vote YES!" etc.
When I said, "What is the matter with these idiots? Didn't they see this coming and get prepared, financially?"
He said, "What did you think that rocking chair was for?"
True then, still true today. That's why DPA won't have any better success than DALPA, it's not about the leadership, it's about the followership!
Got to go to Bible Study now!
Oh wait, no I don't!
I will always listen to and respect different logical views, I might not agree with those views at the moment but I am personally always open to change. If however, you assault my intelligence, integrity, manhood etc. I am not likely to listen to your views and will disregard anything or point you are trying to make.
10-09-2013, 07:25 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
That's how I want you to go out too
10-09-2013, 07:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
First, you were the one that brought up DPA. Or perhaps you just like to talk about "holes." An oral fixation, perhaps? Or anal? 
Look, in order to get the most out of negotiations, our agents must be perceived as willing to walk out or burn it down. Management must be forced to negotiate with that knowledge.
We have a ton of leverage beyond just the financial numbers (which should be good enough for a home run). Delta relies heavily on the public perception that labor strife is nonexistent here. What do you think the stock would do if we walked away from negotiations--or even started picketing? Started papering the media with RA's pay and executive bonus info? Delta would lose the high ground and become just another scumbag airline from a PR standpoint.
ALPA needs to maximize every last iota of leverage. Not try to p!ss it away to lower expectations.
Look, in order to get the most out of negotiations, our agents must be perceived as willing to walk out or burn it down. Management must be forced to negotiate with that knowledge.
We have a ton of leverage beyond just the financial numbers (which should be good enough for a home run). Delta relies heavily on the public perception that labor strife is nonexistent here. What do you think the stock would do if we walked away from negotiations--or even started picketing? Started papering the media with RA's pay and executive bonus info? Delta would lose the high ground and become just another scumbag airline from a PR standpoint.
ALPA needs to maximize every last iota of leverage. Not try to p!ss it away to lower expectations.
10-09-2013, 07:31 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
I don't know about this truck thing. Mine is a massive heart attack on the upstroke, 2 strokes after I'm dead. Think about it
10-09-2013, 07:31 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
I'm surprised you actually put a number out there that you'd vote yes for. My guess is that there is no scenario or number that you would ever vote "yes" for. It's because your vote is influenced by emotion rather than using logic and being rational.
You and a lot of other angry guys here are like scorned wives going through a divorce. There is no amount of money that would make them happy. They just want their husband to suffer as they have.
That's why so many guys were angry about the current contract. Yes, we got some gains back, but Delta didn't suffer like you wanted them to. They are still making money and didn't hurt like you did over the last 14 years. The problem using your logic is that if Delta hurts financially like you want them to, then we all end up hurting again, i.e., paycuts, shrinkage, furloughs, etc...
It's just business. Our emotions shouldn't be a factor. My advice to you Purple is to get some therapy.
You and a lot of other angry guys here are like scorned wives going through a divorce. There is no amount of money that would make them happy. They just want their husband to suffer as they have.
That's why so many guys were angry about the current contract. Yes, we got some gains back, but Delta didn't suffer like you wanted them to. They are still making money and didn't hurt like you did over the last 14 years. The problem using your logic is that if Delta hurts financially like you want them to, then we all end up hurting again, i.e., paycuts, shrinkage, furloughs, etc...
It's just business. Our emotions shouldn't be a factor. My advice to you Purple is to get some therapy.
IMO, you couldn't be more off base.
This is business. It has nothing to do with emotion.
Is Dal poised to profit 2.5 billion this year? Yes.
Did we leave money on the table?
10-09-2013, 07:38 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
10-09-2013, 07:39 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
10-09-2013, 07:39 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
Unless you were in Richards head this is only conjecture. OBTW, the record profits are happening with the 50 seaters still around and the 717 having yet to fly a revenue passenger. In other words, if mgmt had walked away from the table the big "D" would still be posting record profits under our old contract and it would probably be even bigger profits.
10-09-2013, 07:40 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Alright, enough about moving up seniority numbers. I've searched the beer section for torpedoes. Do they go by another name?
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