Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-26-2013, 07:21 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
No that is not my counter argument. Your analysis would be accurate if Delta flew one day per month. Here is my counter argument.
On a micro level you can look at it like this. Let's say Delta has to cover 20 rotations in a month. At first they are 8 hour legs and 16 roundtrip. If the ALV is 80, each pilot could fly 5 round trips a month, so you would need 4 pilots to cover each position. If you increase the block time by 25% to 10 hours each way, then each pilot could only cover 4 round trips and you would need 5 pilots to cover each positions. Not surprisingly a 25% increase in block hours equates to a 25% increase in pilots required.
On a micro level you can look at it like this. Let's say Delta has to cover 20 rotations in a month. At first they are 8 hour legs and 16 roundtrip. If the ALV is 80, each pilot could fly 5 round trips a month, so you would need 4 pilots to cover each position. If you increase the block time by 25% to 10 hours each way, then each pilot could only cover 4 round trips and you would need 5 pilots to cover each positions. Not surprisingly a 25% increase in block hours equates to a 25% increase in pilots required.
There are constraints via the staffing formula and PWA and I said I have X amount of hours figure out how to do it with Y number of pilots that fit those constraints then you could figure it out. If I say X plus 47% more, but I'm going to give you the same number of pilots, figure it out, you can figure it out.
There's a range that they have to work with. If the number is 80 or 75 only that's one thing, but having a 75-80 range and 60 hours max on reserves on average, you can make it to where block hours can go up and you can use the same number of pilots.
You can have a BH ratio, I don't care, but I want a fleet count. (see below)
If I give you X BHs per month and say the ALV must be between 75-80 and the RES can't exceed 60, figure out how many pilots
How many aircraft does it take to fly the above examples. I don't care if it's 10 aircraft or 50. That is management's job to figure out. Pilots fly block hours. Our ALV is in hours, our TLV is in hours, our pickup limit is in hours. Not once do you see the aircraft count in any of those formulae.
How many aircraft does it take to fly the above examples. I don't care if it's 10 aircraft or 50. That is management's job to figure out. Pilots fly block hours. Our ALV is in hours, our TLV is in hours, our pickup limit is in hours. Not once do you see the aircraft count in any of those formulae.
On a macro level, if you churn through all the items in the Manning formula, you would come up with an average block hours/pilot/month. Let's say it's 60, that number is close but let's just use 60. From you example if you had 150 aircraft at 8.1 hours per leg you would generate 150 x 16.2 x 30 hours per month or 72,900 hours. At 60 hours per pilot that would be 1215 pilots per position. If you upped the block hours to 11.9 per leg you have 150 x 23.8 x 30 = 107,100 hours. At 60 hours per, you would have 1785 pilots. Not shockingly, a 47% increase in block hours equates to a 47% increase in pilots required.
You are confusing how many pilots it takes to fill up a month's schedule to how many are flying on one day. In your example, there would be an identical number of pilots flying on each day. However, in the higher block hour example, pilots would run out of hours in fewer days. Hence, a 777 pilot might get 80 hours in 9 days and a 717 pilot might take 14 but they both fly 80 hours.
But give me an ALV (TLV would be the same) and reserve constraint and I can get the same number of pilots to fly 47% more block hours in the said example. You said block hours are all that matters, I'm out to prove that's not true... using math.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 09-26-2013 at 07:32 PM.
09-26-2013, 07:25 PM
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10 hour battery life?
So is it going to be plugged in somewhere for our 15-17+ hour legs?
As long as it will quickly, easily and adequately display all the Jepp pages and charts we need, I don't really care about how it does Facebook, video games or Angry Birds.
Words with Friends would be nice, I'm sick of that Alec Baldwin kicking my arse with that!
So is it going to be plugged in somewhere for our 15-17+ hour legs?
As long as it will quickly, easily and adequately display all the Jepp pages and charts we need, I don't really care about how it does Facebook, video games or Angry Birds.
Words with Friends would be nice, I'm sick of that Alec Baldwin kicking my arse with that!
09-26-2013, 07:27 PM
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For 4 years there were 0 new 50+ seat jets. It seems like the fleet count constraint worked just fine. Why take it out and advocate so hard for it to be removed?
And who am I supposed to believe in? The PWA 2008 DALPA said we need a fleet count and not block hour ratio or the ones in 2012 that say the opposite?
09-26-2013, 07:43 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
That's me and Timbo flying to Dubai. Timbo's the one sitting down. The wiring is to code. (Outsourced to Douglas).
I'm about to demonstrate how to move up a number.
Now I know what you guys are thinking...you are all polite. Next time your Captain sneezes, don't say "bless you" instead say "die already"
Alright, not to Timbo.
I'm about to demonstrate how to move up a number.
Now I know what you guys are thinking...you are all polite. Next time your Captain sneezes, don't say "bless you" instead say "die already"
Alright, not to Timbo.
09-26-2013, 07:46 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Scambo.... your senior to me...
09-26-2013, 08:26 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
You Surface 2 haters are full of hops.
It is really the best device out there for what Delta wants to do. In fact Surface 2, if people will keep an open mind, will be a terrific piece of enterprise level kit for the reasons covered here:
Windows RT: Fortified against malware | Security - InfoWorld
Delta could care less if you don't have a dedicated Facebook App ... boo flipping hoo ... you'll have to run your Skype, Facebook, type stuff on Internet Explorer 10. But even so IE10 is tons better than any browser that runs on the iPad.
For us the Surface 2 is cool because it will be a powerhouse of a Tablet, something like 6 times as fast an iPad for some tasks. It cuts through 1080p video like butter. We can set up our own User Accounts and have reasonable independence from the Administrator, while using full Office productivity tools, real HDMI, USB3, the latest WiFi protocols and being able to print from it easily.
Windows accessory keyboards are the best in this marketplace and with the aux battery / keyboard a lot of us could probably leave the charger at home and be fine. That combo should have something like a 15 hour + life (and perhaps well over 20 hours) the thing already has 15 days of standby power without the aux battery accessory.
From a system administrator viewpoint, this thing is perfect. I don't know if it will replace my personal EFB, but we've already got one coming for the wifey (since I'm the system admin at my house and hate dorking with her computers).
In semi related news, my hacked tablet is running a distro called "Brazillian Wax" ... guess the nerd figured that was as smooth as it could be made
That's why Delta probably should remain well clear of anything like and Apple or full Win 8.1 product ... some nerd like me would try to hack it & just break the thing.
Delta is ahead of the curve on this.
It is really the best device out there for what Delta wants to do. In fact Surface 2, if people will keep an open mind, will be a terrific piece of enterprise level kit for the reasons covered here:
Windows RT: Fortified against malware | Security - InfoWorld
Delta could care less if you don't have a dedicated Facebook App ... boo flipping hoo ... you'll have to run your Skype, Facebook, type stuff on Internet Explorer 10. But even so IE10 is tons better than any browser that runs on the iPad.
For us the Surface 2 is cool because it will be a powerhouse of a Tablet, something like 6 times as fast an iPad for some tasks. It cuts through 1080p video like butter. We can set up our own User Accounts and have reasonable independence from the Administrator, while using full Office productivity tools, real HDMI, USB3, the latest WiFi protocols and being able to print from it easily.
Windows accessory keyboards are the best in this marketplace and with the aux battery / keyboard a lot of us could probably leave the charger at home and be fine. That combo should have something like a 15 hour + life (and perhaps well over 20 hours) the thing already has 15 days of standby power without the aux battery accessory.
From a system administrator viewpoint, this thing is perfect. I don't know if it will replace my personal EFB, but we've already got one coming for the wifey (since I'm the system admin at my house and hate dorking with her computers).
In semi related news, my hacked tablet is running a distro called "Brazillian Wax" ... guess the nerd figured that was as smooth as it could be made
That's why Delta probably should remain well clear of anything like and Apple or full Win 8.1 product ... some nerd like me would try to hack it & just break the thing.
Delta is ahead of the curve on this.
09-26-2013, 08:32 PM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
That's me and Timbo flying to Dubai. Timbo's the one sitting down. The wiring is to code. (Outsourced to Douglas).
I'm about to demonstrate how to move up a number.
Now I know what you guys are thinking...you are all polite. Next time your Captain sneezes, don't say "bless you" instead say "die already"
Alright, not to Timbo.
I'm about to demonstrate how to move up a number.
Now I know what you guys are thinking...you are all polite. Next time your Captain sneezes, don't say "bless you" instead say "die already"
Alright, not to Timbo.
Too funny! Hey, I've got to go to Dubai again tomorrow, you in?
I'll bring the electric hot plate, you bring your flip flops!
And you know what the L1011 Copilot said to the engineer, after the Captain had a heart attack in flight?
"Help me get this A-hole out of MY seat, and you can have the landing!"
09-27-2013, 12:22 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
I see your points, but what happens when Windows RT is tossed into the bin? Who supports this platform then? Delta Tech? You can't do Windows on an ARM processor. Then we are stuck with an orphaned operating system with limited crossover capability. I too don't care about facebook etc... but what about our training and our bids? Can we do that on this thing? Or again, is this just a device that contains a PDF viewer for our charts and manuals... something that most of us already have?
09-27-2013, 03:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Great article:
Growth at Emirates Airlines Shows Need for US Airways/AA Merger - TheStreet
This seems to follow what ALPA and DAL management have been shoving down our throats for the past few years!
Growth at Emirates Airlines Shows Need for US Airways/AA Merger - TheStreet
This seems to follow what ALPA and DAL management have been shoving down our throats for the past few years!
09-27-2013, 03:56 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
The highlights from that article for those of you too lazy to click on the link, read that last paragraph, twice!:
On the Milan-New York flight, Emirates will compete with three airlines: Alitalia, American and Delta, in addition to United, which flies Milan-Newark. The Dubai-Milan-New York route is made possible by a bilateral treaty between the United Arab Emirates and Italy, and by Italian regulators' agreement to grant Emirates "an extra-bilateral right," to fly the Milan-New York segment, despite objections by Alitalia.
Emirates has various advantages in competing with U.S. carriers. For one, it is backed not only by the Dubai government, its wealthy owner, but also by the U.S. government, which helps Emirates buy Boeing aircraft with below-market interest rates provided by the Ex-Im Bank. Emirates pays less for Boeing airplanes than U.S. airlines pay, then competes with U.S. airlines for passengers, according to a suit filed by Delta, Hawaiian and the Air Line Pilots Association.
Additionally, the U.S. government has been prone to sign aviation treaties benefiting airlines in other countries more than they benefit U.S. airlines. Aviation consultant Robert Mann said: "For years, we've had an open skies policy that trades away access to the U.S. market for what amounts to nothing, in most cases, because we sign treaties with anyone who gives us open skies, even places with no internal traffic. Now, a couple of fast-growing carriers are maximizing their take, due to open skies."
The combination of open skies treaties, Ex-Im financing, high airline taxation and the approval of three mergers followed by rejection of a fourth shows that "we lack a coordinated air transportation policy," Mann said. "In some cases there is no evidence of any policy, and in other areas there is evidence of a lack of a coordinated policy."
And that's why I hate our Politicians.
On the Milan-New York flight, Emirates will compete with three airlines: Alitalia, American and Delta, in addition to United, which flies Milan-Newark. The Dubai-Milan-New York route is made possible by a bilateral treaty between the United Arab Emirates and Italy, and by Italian regulators' agreement to grant Emirates "an extra-bilateral right," to fly the Milan-New York segment, despite objections by Alitalia.
Emirates has various advantages in competing with U.S. carriers. For one, it is backed not only by the Dubai government, its wealthy owner, but also by the U.S. government, which helps Emirates buy Boeing aircraft with below-market interest rates provided by the Ex-Im Bank. Emirates pays less for Boeing airplanes than U.S. airlines pay, then competes with U.S. airlines for passengers, according to a suit filed by Delta, Hawaiian and the Air Line Pilots Association.
Additionally, the U.S. government has been prone to sign aviation treaties benefiting airlines in other countries more than they benefit U.S. airlines. Aviation consultant Robert Mann said: "For years, we've had an open skies policy that trades away access to the U.S. market for what amounts to nothing, in most cases, because we sign treaties with anyone who gives us open skies, even places with no internal traffic. Now, a couple of fast-growing carriers are maximizing their take, due to open skies."
The combination of open skies treaties, Ex-Im financing, high airline taxation and the approval of three mergers followed by rejection of a fourth shows that "we lack a coordinated air transportation policy," Mann said. "In some cases there is no evidence of any policy, and in other areas there is evidence of a lack of a coordinated policy."
And that's why I hate our Politicians.
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