Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-25-2013, 04:55 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Since we're throwing politics into this, I was driving my daughter to school this morning, and we were listening to the news, about the senator speaking all night against the Affordable HealthCare Law. Actually, I didn't think she was paying much attention, when she says "This guy is speaking against the Affordable HealthCare Law? What a d!ck!".
Smart kid, and probably the one time a teenage girl can get her father to be proud of her use of that word.
Smart kid, and probably the one time a teenage girl can get her father to be proud of her use of that word.
09-25-2013, 04:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
09-25-2013, 04:59 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I understand what you are saying. But, I think it's important for us all to put on each others shoes. Delta has a lot of senior FO's who don't have a lot of great choices. Throw in a furlough or two, and few kids that are headed to college, a move, and a displacement, or two, and you will get the drift. We should all pay attention to each other. Then we wouldn't be surprised when a lot of guys get very protective of future growth.
For them, the "see what happens" might not be any worse than what they have been through in the past.
For them, the "see what happens" might not be any worse than what they have been through in the past.
Just sayin' I really don't care either way, but I just wish those that are advocating a philosophy of exercising some sort of push back plan would for once actually delineate exactly what leverage it is that they believe we can bring to bear.... And just say 'no' is not leverage.
09-25-2013, 05:06 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
It's all an academic point anyway since our union has now done it and never even thought of putting it out for MEMRAT.
I think we keep talking past each other with your question of leverage. Leverage is something you use to get somebody to do something they don't want to do. We pilots weren't the ones that wanted something. We already had it (emphasis on had). It was management that needed us to do something. Thus it was their place to use leverage to try and make us voluntarily get rid of our protective language. The leverage they used is what always works with Delta pilots...fear of the unknown.
Again, we didn't need to use any leverage because we had the language on our side thanks to some very good negotiators years back. We just needed to smile and respectfully say that a contract is a contract. But we didn't do that. Just like the AirTran pilots who were too scared to press their legal rights to an SLI under McCaskill-Bond, we discarded our own language for the same fearful reasons.
Why would I even want to guarantee that tsquare? I'm a pilot, they're managers. The language was there to protect Delta pilots' jobs...not Delta profits. But it's gone now.
Again, I don't know and I don't care. The language was there to protect us, not provide traffic.
Carl
I think we keep talking past each other with your question of leverage. Leverage is something you use to get somebody to do something they don't want to do. We pilots weren't the ones that wanted something. We already had it (emphasis on had). It was management that needed us to do something. Thus it was their place to use leverage to try and make us voluntarily get rid of our protective language. The leverage they used is what always works with Delta pilots...fear of the unknown.
Again, we didn't need to use any leverage because we had the language on our side thanks to some very good negotiators years back. We just needed to smile and respectfully say that a contract is a contract. But we didn't do that. Just like the AirTran pilots who were too scared to press their legal rights to an SLI under McCaskill-Bond, we discarded our own language for the same fearful reasons.
Why would I even want to guarantee that tsquare? I'm a pilot, they're managers. The language was there to protect Delta pilots' jobs...not Delta profits. But it's gone now.
Again, I don't know and I don't care. The language was there to protect us, not provide traffic.
Carl
You totally avoided that question in your response. Forget about what supposedly has been done by the MEC, and these boards are nothing but a discussion anyway, we don't affect policy no matter how much you wish otherwise. Educate me on what it is that you believe protected us and could have FORCED management to keep those slots in use..... and more importantly, the follow on that would have then guaranteed that they would have been FORCED to maintain all those slots in NRT. Frankly, I don't think you can do that because the way I understand it, that language does not exist. But I'll listen.
And one last thing... without "traffic" there are no passengers.. and without them, we have no jobs. We are a DISTANT third in terms of Asian code share partners, and it is a big disadvantage for us. Why can'[t we do that flying organically? I do not know, but apparently we cannot. I think this is the first manifestation of that reason.....
Last edited by tsquare; 09-25-2013 at 05:19 AM.
09-25-2013, 05:14 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
As a follow on, I wouldn't be surprised to see the company ask for a minimum number of flight hours/month in order to qualify for health benefits....
Oh, and Florida will not be participating in the state exchanges. Rick Scott et al decided to let The One pay for it since he had it all figured out even before anybody read the bill..... Fast track to the progressive wet dream of single payer system.... I think he's just trying to help.
09-25-2013, 05:24 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
I hear the senior FOs (on these boards) loud and clear. The disconnect arises when I hear that saying 'no' guarantees anything. Like I told purple, Let's roll the dice, but if it goes bad, I don't wanna hear any whining.... Pilots are by definition -risk averse-. One would think that a plan for slow steady recapture of scope and compensation would be preferable, but it seems that many would prefer to swing for the fence. Babe Ruth struck out a lot.
Just sayin' I really don't care either way, but I just wish those that are advocating a philosophy of exercising some sort of push back plan would for once actually delineate exactly what leverage it is that they believe we can bring to bear.... And just say 'no' is not leverage.
Just sayin' I really don't care either way, but I just wish those that are advocating a philosophy of exercising some sort of push back plan would for once actually delineate exactly what leverage it is that they believe we can bring to bear.... And just say 'no' is not leverage.
Just my opinion, but this LOA would probably have gone no differently if DPA was in charge. This was 100% in house DALPA. I will be interested to read the various dissenting opinions between the reps.
Another opinion I have, based on SDs last letter to the troops is that no matter how much each of us is bent to think like managers, or investment grade whatevers, SD and management looks at us like children and incapable of rational managerial thought...
It was an interesting and entertaining back and forth last night, but one thing all of us can probably agree on, we were almost all completely in the dark about the details and nuance of what this LOA involved (that didn't stop us) and we argued with each other based on the standard "battle lines."
Why was this LOA which, IMO, was negotiated over a period of time done in such secrecy? Why were we not educated on the nuance by our CBA? Why was there no MEMRAT?
Are we a bunch of idiots? Do our reps view us the same as SD views us? This LOA was the perfect set up for one of those Hitler videos.
As to the leverage question, if the company comes to us, we have leverage. The amount of that leverage is the question mark.
There are a couple of things I THINK are facts.
1. This doesn't have anything to do with 15 pax/day, that number will get much larger.
2. The end result of the LOA will require fewer DAL jets to do the same job.
09-25-2013, 05:36 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Capt
Posts: 2,049
T,
As to the leverage question, if the company comes to us, we have leverage. The amount of that leverage is the question mark.
There are a couple of things I THINK are facts.
1. This doesn't have anything to do with 15 pax/day, that number will get much larger.
2. The end result of the LOA will require fewer DAL jets to do the same job.
As to the leverage question, if the company comes to us, we have leverage. The amount of that leverage is the question mark.
There are a couple of things I THINK are facts.
1. This doesn't have anything to do with 15 pax/day, that number will get much larger.
2. The end result of the LOA will require fewer DAL jets to do the same job.
Sounds to me like an issue about a few slots and a few pax turned into another reason to watch pax get on another company's jet. Also, history has PROVEN that 85% can easily be changed (if that what the number is)
09-25-2013, 05:36 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+
Posts: 1,278
T,
Just my opinion, but this LOA would probably have gone no differently if DPA was in charge. This was 100% in house DALPA. I will be interested to read the various dissenting opinions between the reps.
Another opinion I have, based on SDs last letter to the troops is that no matter how much each of us is bent to think like managers, or investment grade whatevers, SD and management looks at us like children and incapable of rational managerial thought...
It was an interesting and entertaining back and forth last night, but one thing all of us can probably agree on, we were almost all completely in the dark about the details and nuance of what this LOA involved (that didn't stop us) and we argued with each other based on the standard "battle lines."
Why was this LOA which, IMO, was negotiated over a period of time done in such secrecy? Why were we not educated on the nuance by our CBA? Why was there no MEMRAT?
Are we a bunch of idiots? Do our reps view us the same as SD views us? This LOA was the perfect set up for one of those Hitler videos.
As to the leverage question, if the company comes to us, we have leverage. The amount of that leverage is the question mark.
There are a couple of things I THINK are facts.
1. This doesn't have anything to do with 15 pax/day, that number will get much larger.
2. The end result of the LOA will require fewer DAL jets to do the same job.
Just my opinion, but this LOA would probably have gone no differently if DPA was in charge. This was 100% in house DALPA. I will be interested to read the various dissenting opinions between the reps.
Another opinion I have, based on SDs last letter to the troops is that no matter how much each of us is bent to think like managers, or investment grade whatevers, SD and management looks at us like children and incapable of rational managerial thought...
It was an interesting and entertaining back and forth last night, but one thing all of us can probably agree on, we were almost all completely in the dark about the details and nuance of what this LOA involved (that didn't stop us) and we argued with each other based on the standard "battle lines."
Why was this LOA which, IMO, was negotiated over a period of time done in such secrecy? Why were we not educated on the nuance by our CBA? Why was there no MEMRAT?
Are we a bunch of idiots? Do our reps view us the same as SD views us? This LOA was the perfect set up for one of those Hitler videos.
As to the leverage question, if the company comes to us, we have leverage. The amount of that leverage is the question mark.
There are a couple of things I THINK are facts.
1. This doesn't have anything to do with 15 pax/day, that number will get much larger.
2. The end result of the LOA will require fewer DAL jets to do the same job.
09-25-2013, 05:54 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Turns out she knows some other cuss words. Must be from her mother's side of the family.
It was a perfect morning, really.
...
We really want politics on APC?
09-25-2013, 05:55 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Scambo, I agree as I had thought that transparency was the new DALPA. We need to change to Memrat on things like this. This whole LOA was done in secrecy without member input, even though I like the floor on minimum block hours. From the folks I have talked to Asia flying is going to grow and evolve.
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