TOGA LK

Good point. Alfa ticks me off, just wanted to throw some heat his way.

alfaromeo

It was not cavalier at all. When people are on furlough, most of them found other jobs. They may have been at NetJets, or ASA, or working for their father's insurance company. It is cavalier to make them have to decide to quit their job when you have no clue as to whether or not they will have solid employment for more than six months. We took a shot at avoiding bankruptcy in 2004 but no one was under the impression that it was a sure thing. We knew that staffing efficiencies would allow Delta to operate with about 700 fewer pilots in 2006 than they needed in 2005. So everyone involved, the MEC, management, the administration, the negotiators tried to find the path that would provide the most assurance to all the pilots, both the ones that were recalled in 2005 and those that were yet to be recalled.

Northwest furloughed pilots twice. United furloughed pilots twice. US Airways furloughed pilots twice. TWA and Pan Am all furloughed twice. You tell me, would you want to take a recall with a 6 month guarantee of employment? Northwest went bankrupt in September 2005, the same day Delta did. They furloughed pilots in November 2005 and kept furloughing until February 2006. It was almost 200 pilots. They were still bringing back pilots from furlough in 2008, three years later. The most junior pilot furloughed had been on property for 8 months from his last furlough.

When bankruptcy hit we lost the entire 737-200 fleet. We were overstaffed by hundreds of pilots. If we had 600-700 more, what in the world would make you think they would not furlough those pilots? Seriously, are you daft?

It was not cavalier at all. What is cavalier is that we should "hope" that management would not furlough. Did you see what bankruptcy was? What in the hell would give you "hope" that management would hold on to hundreds and hundreds of extra pilots that they didn't need? So you want some pilot to quit his job that is feeding his family on some vague "hope" that everything would work out well? Are you cruel or just ignorant?

Unless you are completely insane, you would see how the most caring and kind thing you could do was not force people into making these life altering decisions with no security behind it. Everyone was quite happy that once a pilot was recalled at Delta, they had a job and they weren't just used for a few months and then tossed aside again. Yet you want these pilots to live on some vague "hope". I wonder if the Kroger's accepted "hope" when those double furloughed pilots needed to feed their kids.

Get rid of your anger and use your brain for once in your life. Or maybe you are just a cruel person that likes to play with people's lives like they are pawns.

Carl Spackler

OK.

Here's where your logic train becomes derailed. The company didn't say this...DALPA did. Next.

Again, company never said that...DALPA did.

Again, company never said that...DALPA did.

Now this is something management actually DID say.

Given the above, you'll probably want to rethink your attempt at making hypocrites out of people who are displeased with DALPA.

Carl

Denny Crane

Not that it matters but I don't think it was LOA 46, more like 51 I believe. If I remember correctly when that vote came up, Delta was already in the recall process and was planning on meeting or beating the recall schedule so to many it seemed like a moot point and if they could get something for it, why not. As it turned out, didn't Delta meet or beat that recall schedule anyway? (Or come pretty close to it?)

Maybe the first sign of proactive engagement?

Denny

Carl Spackler

Probably more like Valley Forge. DALPA is playing the part of British soldiers quite nicely as they've far underestimated the ragtag DPA folks who don't stand a chance against the mighty crown.

The fact that ALPA thinks of it as foreign soil is actually a major part of their problem. We think of them as foreign because they're so disconnected from us, and they think the same of us since we don't even understand the meaning of the phrase "our fair share of the flying."

ALPA has lost those maps Bar. You might be able to help them, but I'm afraid right now you would be considered just another foreigner.

DPA can't seize anything if and until they're voted in. ALPA is in so they could seize upon it. But ALPA refuses.

I like these history metaphors.

Carl

Mesabah

Lee Moak put out a video for the Pinnacle TA roadshow explaining the SSP and why we should vote yes for the 9E TA. I can't find the video anymore, it appears it was deleted.

jetnwa

I rarely patron this board but this is truly amazing. I'm not a RD but having been furloughed three times in two years (once from NWA, then twice from a start up that eventually liquidated), I do have some experience with the issue.

The decision to return or not from a recall is a decision for a furloughee to make and not someone else. It is called being in the "adult" phase of one's life.

I can think of many reasons to come back even as seasonal help to being furloughed again:

1. A chance to gain currency if not flying. As most places would require seniority resignation, flying jobs may be hard to come by for employment. Many flying operations require certain amount of hours in a given time frame. One may just get a new type rating or currency needed to land a flying position at a later date.

2. The fact the pilot may be unemployed (like a failed carrier) or outside of aviation and the call comes for a recall. Maybe the lack of currency (esp with seniority resignation issues) has made a furloughed pilot difficult to find a flying job.

3. A chance to get back on health insurance (as I lost mine when my carrier liquidated) and not easy to get employer based insurance when the company collapses. It is a horrible feeling to worry about not having health insurance. Medical bills without health insurance is one of the biggest reasons for personal bankruptcy. Having access to it could be a reason to even go back to the airline with the chance of getting furloughed.

4. The chance to qualify for unemployment insurance if furloughed again. I did contract corporate flying when I could to stay current. The UE bridged the gap when contract work was dry and worked until I got full time employment as a pilot.

The "bypass" portion of a recall of furlougees can be utilized as needed if one is unsure about being so junior and afraid of being forced on the street again. I was very fortunate that I have a very low cost of living/money saved and was able to fly when I could vice taking a job I hated. Other people were not as fortunate. With that being said, it would be their decision to accept a recall or give up a stable job.

Furlough is not a fun experience and forever shaped my life. It was especially tough when your company throws you on the street and keeps your furlough pay you need to survive. A tough life lesson learned for me and it taught me how to sharpen my elbows when needed. Even now, I put cash in the bank and never take anything for granted.

Best of luck in our future endeavors....

Carl Spackler

Wow, alfaromeo sounds angry.

You can't make this stuff up folks.

Carl

Carl Spackler

I'm pretty sure Purple (or anyone else on this board) isn't fooled for a moment by your attempt to out-outrage someone. You're the one that remarked as if you union officials played with furloughed pilots' lives like they were pawns. Maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded, but you definitely gave that impression.

You atone for this kind of political deafness by apologizing...not by accusing those who called you out on it of doing what only you've done.

Carl

Bucking Bar

Consider 6 months of Delta pay equalled about two years of pay at ASA new hire rates ... .Well stated.