Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-01-2013, 10:50 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
So how does this make me wrong? Are you denying that the Status-quo regarding greesn-slips changed? We now had had no "status quo." Status-quo is what shut down the no Green-slip campaign earlier. DALPA had another chance and choose not to pursue it. Maybe the reason was to avoid a double furlough as you say above but I doubt they would have been able to furlough without guys flying green-slips.
I was furloughed, then recalled and hundreds were still furloughed. I remember tons of Greesn-slips going out this time and DALPA was OK with it.
Any other furloughed guys remember Green-slips going out at this time?
Its really not worth arguing at this point. Most realize that DALPA will never, ever admit that it could have actually done something just a little bit better .............ever.
It must be nice to be perfect.
Scoop
I was furloughed, then recalled and hundreds were still furloughed. I remember tons of Greesn-slips going out this time and DALPA was OK with it.
Any other furloughed guys remember Green-slips going out at this time?
Its really not worth arguing at this point. Most realize that DALPA will never, ever admit that it could have actually done something just a little bit better .............ever.
It must be nice to be perfect.
Scoop
This whole Status Quo thing is the most misunderstood concept. Status-Quo is the contract. So there is never any prohibition against following the contract. Individuals can exercise their rights under the contract any time they want, so can the company. What is prohibited is "illegal concerted activity". That means you cannot try to pressure the company or individuals from exercising their contractual rights by some type of organized activity, whether the union is organizing it or not.
So when you say establish a new Status Quo the only way to do that is to write a new contract. You can't just decide at some point to unilaterally change the contract because of some changed circumstance. Under the RLA there is only one time that you are able to engage in concerted activity. That is when you are in Section 6 negotiations, the NMB has released you from mediation, and the thirty day cooling off period has expired. That is it.
Now back to the original point. Did Delta pilots fly excess green slips that prevented furloughed pilots from being recalled. The answer to that is absolutely "NO!!!!". Full stop. If you claim otherwise, you need to provide some documentation, because I tracked that stuff monthly as I was deeply involved in designing the scheduling system that was negotiated in 2004. We were grossly overstaffed from 2002-2004 and there were very few green slips given out.
There are two types of green slips given out. One is when you are chronically understaffed and they are given out regularly to fill in shortfalls in reserve coverage. We have seen many of these types of green slips this summer, but that is the first time you have seen that in the last 3 years. When the company is giving out these green slips regularly, they will bid out positions or hire more pilots because it is grossly more expensive to have green slips fill up a month rather than have an extra pilot at straight pay.
The other type of green slip is a temporary shortage caused by special events; thunderstorms, snow, hurricane, etc. etc. These types will never trigger a need for more staffing because it is not cost effective to have pilots sitting around for months and months to only fill in every once in a while. They will fill these flights somehow. If they don't have green slips, they will inverse assign pilots. If they can't inverse assign, they will reroute other pilots. So in this case, having a green slip only determines who gets this extra flying. A green slip lets someone volunteer, while the other two force the flying on whoever gets tapped for it.
As I said before, the only time when any significant number of green slips were assigned was in the summer of 2005. We had negotiated a new scheduling and bidding system (PBS) and we new that this would decrease our head count by hundreds of pilots. Since pilots were still retiring, we knew we would be short in the summer of 2005 and then overstaffed again in the Fall of 2005 when the new scheduling rules kicked in. We still recalled pilots all through 2005 until bankruptcy, but we made a deliberate choice to run lean through the summer so we would not have to recall a pilot and then furlough him again.
NWA had pilots that were double furloughed, including Caplinger, and to this day they talk about like it happened yesterday. In fact, the whole DPA started simply because Caplinger could not get over it.
So you can criticize that choice, most pilots that hear the rationale agree that it is worse to double furlough than it was to stretch out the summer like we did.
The facts are, we were overstaffed all through 2002-2004, there were very few green slips that went out, and if no one put in a green slip the company would simply cover the flights with inverse assignments and reroutes. Those are the facts. This has nothing to do with perfection, this has to do with facts that exist.
You were furloughed, that must have sucked badly. I wasn't so I can't really know how you felt but I can imagine. However, that doesn't give you the right to make stuff up because you were angry. People cared about the furloughs, we gave a lot of money to ensure they had medical coverage and a loan fund to take care of people. We tracked manning month by month and scrutinized manning. We went back to the arbitrator and got him to order a recall schedule established even when Delta was grossly overstaffed. We considered the impact on furloughs on every decision we made.
We pursued every avenue that was available to us legally and went way, way beyond what was required of us. Despite their being very few green slips, the ones that were assigned were simply a matter of who gets the flying. Could senior pilots volunteer for it or would junior pilots have it forced on them?
So all this talk about Status Quo and a no green slip campaign are the result of your understandable frustration with being furloughed. If it makes you feel better to attack your fellow pilots with no basis then you are free to do so. The facts are that not one furloughed pilot was held back from recall by green slips. You can call me names but you can't change the facts.
09-01-2013, 11:08 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
If market cap is an important metric to you, Delta is at approximately $17 billion. In 1998 Delta's peak market cap was about $28 billion. So Delta is 61% of the way back...
You quoted a guy on my ignore list talking about "cola pay raises". Contract 2012 puts his super premium pay rate at $270.25 plus 15% DC on 1/1/15. The highest pay rate he ever had prior to the merger was $264.96 plus 3% MPPP. BTW, it's still not enough.
You quoted a guy on my ignore list talking about "cola pay raises". Contract 2012 puts his super premium pay rate at $270.25 plus 15% DC on 1/1/15. The highest pay rate he ever had prior to the merger was $264.96 plus 3% MPPP. BTW, it's still not enough.
What are the C2k rates adjusted for inflation? FTB or anyone else happen to have those handy?
09-01-2013, 11:53 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,989
First, I would say quit arguing like a child. We can disagree on a point without me thinking I am perfect. Do you think you are perfect because you disagree with me.
This whole Status Quo thing is the most misunderstood concept. Status-Quo is the contract. So there is never any prohibition against following the contract. Individuals can exercise their rights under the contract any time they want, so can the company. What is prohibited is "illegal concerted activity". That means you cannot try to pressure the company or individuals from exercising their contractual rights by some type of organized activity, whether the union is organizing it or not.
So when you say establish a new Status Quo the only way to do that is to write a new contract. You can't just decide at some point to unilaterally change the contract because of some changed circumstance. Under the RLA there is only one time that you are able to engage in concerted activity. That is when you are in Section 6 negotiations, the NMB has released you from mediation, and the thirty day cooling off period has expired. That is it.
Now back to the original point. Did Delta pilots fly excess green slips that prevented furloughed pilots from being recalled. The answer to that is absolutely "NO!!!!". Full stop. If you claim otherwise, you need to provide some documentation, because I tracked that stuff monthly as I was deeply involved in designing the scheduling system that was negotiated in 2004. We were grossly overstaffed from 2002-2004 and there were very few green slips given out.
There are two types of green slips given out. One is when you are chronically understaffed and they are given out regularly to fill in shortfalls in reserve coverage. We have seen many of these types of green slips this summer, but that is the first time you have seen that in the last 3 years. When the company is giving out these green slips regularly, they will bid out positions or hire more pilots because it is grossly more expensive to have green slips fill up a month rather than have an extra pilot at straight pay.
The other type of green slip is a temporary shortage caused by special events; thunderstorms, snow, hurricane, etc. etc. These types will never trigger a need for more staffing because it is not cost effective to have pilots sitting around for months and months to only fill in every once in a while. They will fill these flights somehow. If they don't have green slips, they will inverse assign pilots. If they can't inverse assign, they will reroute other pilots. So in this case, having a green slip only determines who gets this extra flying. A green slip lets someone volunteer, while the other two force the flying on whoever gets tapped for it.
As I said before, the only time when any significant number of green slips were assigned was in the summer of 2005. We had negotiated a new scheduling and bidding system (PBS) and we new that this would decrease our head count by hundreds of pilots. Since pilots were still retiring, we knew we would be short in the summer of 2005 and then overstaffed again in the Fall of 2005 when the new scheduling rules kicked in. We still recalled pilots all through 2005 until bankruptcy, but we made a deliberate choice to run lean through the summer so we would not have to recall a pilot and then furlough him again.
NWA had pilots that were double furloughed, including Caplinger, and to this day they talk about like it happened yesterday. In fact, the whole DPA started simply because Caplinger could not get over it.
So you can criticize that choice, most pilots that hear the rationale agree that it is worse to double furlough than it was to stretch out the summer like we did.
The facts are, we were overstaffed all through 2002-2004, there were very few green slips that went out, and if no one put in a green slip the company would simply cover the flights with inverse assignments and reroutes. Those are the facts. This has nothing to do with perfection, this has to do with facts that exist.
You were furloughed, that must have sucked badly. I wasn't so I can't really know how you felt but I can imagine. However, that doesn't give you the right to make stuff up because you were angry. People cared about the furloughs, we gave a lot of money to ensure they had medical coverage and a loan fund to take care of people. We tracked manning month by month and scrutinized manning. We went back to the arbitrator and got him to order a recall schedule established even when Delta was grossly overstaffed. We considered the impact on furloughs on every decision we made.
We pursued every avenue that was available to us legally and went way, way beyond what was required of us. Despite their being very few green slips, the ones that were assigned were simply a matter of who gets the flying. Could senior pilots volunteer for it or would junior pilots have it forced on them?
So all this talk about Status Quo and a no green slip campaign are the result of your understandable frustration with being furloughed. If it makes you feel better to attack your fellow pilots with no basis then you are free to do so. The facts are that not one furloughed pilot was held back from recall by green slips. You can call me names but you can't change the facts.
This whole Status Quo thing is the most misunderstood concept. Status-Quo is the contract. So there is never any prohibition against following the contract. Individuals can exercise their rights under the contract any time they want, so can the company. What is prohibited is "illegal concerted activity". That means you cannot try to pressure the company or individuals from exercising their contractual rights by some type of organized activity, whether the union is organizing it or not.
So when you say establish a new Status Quo the only way to do that is to write a new contract. You can't just decide at some point to unilaterally change the contract because of some changed circumstance. Under the RLA there is only one time that you are able to engage in concerted activity. That is when you are in Section 6 negotiations, the NMB has released you from mediation, and the thirty day cooling off period has expired. That is it.
Now back to the original point. Did Delta pilots fly excess green slips that prevented furloughed pilots from being recalled. The answer to that is absolutely "NO!!!!". Full stop. If you claim otherwise, you need to provide some documentation, because I tracked that stuff monthly as I was deeply involved in designing the scheduling system that was negotiated in 2004. We were grossly overstaffed from 2002-2004 and there were very few green slips given out.
There are two types of green slips given out. One is when you are chronically understaffed and they are given out regularly to fill in shortfalls in reserve coverage. We have seen many of these types of green slips this summer, but that is the first time you have seen that in the last 3 years. When the company is giving out these green slips regularly, they will bid out positions or hire more pilots because it is grossly more expensive to have green slips fill up a month rather than have an extra pilot at straight pay.
The other type of green slip is a temporary shortage caused by special events; thunderstorms, snow, hurricane, etc. etc. These types will never trigger a need for more staffing because it is not cost effective to have pilots sitting around for months and months to only fill in every once in a while. They will fill these flights somehow. If they don't have green slips, they will inverse assign pilots. If they can't inverse assign, they will reroute other pilots. So in this case, having a green slip only determines who gets this extra flying. A green slip lets someone volunteer, while the other two force the flying on whoever gets tapped for it.
As I said before, the only time when any significant number of green slips were assigned was in the summer of 2005. We had negotiated a new scheduling and bidding system (PBS) and we new that this would decrease our head count by hundreds of pilots. Since pilots were still retiring, we knew we would be short in the summer of 2005 and then overstaffed again in the Fall of 2005 when the new scheduling rules kicked in. We still recalled pilots all through 2005 until bankruptcy, but we made a deliberate choice to run lean through the summer so we would not have to recall a pilot and then furlough him again.
NWA had pilots that were double furloughed, including Caplinger, and to this day they talk about like it happened yesterday. In fact, the whole DPA started simply because Caplinger could not get over it.
So you can criticize that choice, most pilots that hear the rationale agree that it is worse to double furlough than it was to stretch out the summer like we did.
The facts are, we were overstaffed all through 2002-2004, there were very few green slips that went out, and if no one put in a green slip the company would simply cover the flights with inverse assignments and reroutes. Those are the facts. This has nothing to do with perfection, this has to do with facts that exist.
You were furloughed, that must have sucked badly. I wasn't so I can't really know how you felt but I can imagine. However, that doesn't give you the right to make stuff up because you were angry. People cared about the furloughs, we gave a lot of money to ensure they had medical coverage and a loan fund to take care of people. We tracked manning month by month and scrutinized manning. We went back to the arbitrator and got him to order a recall schedule established even when Delta was grossly overstaffed. We considered the impact on furloughs on every decision we made.
We pursued every avenue that was available to us legally and went way, way beyond what was required of us. Despite their being very few green slips, the ones that were assigned were simply a matter of who gets the flying. Could senior pilots volunteer for it or would junior pilots have it forced on them?
So all this talk about Status Quo and a no green slip campaign are the result of your understandable frustration with being furloughed. If it makes you feel better to attack your fellow pilots with no basis then you are free to do so. The facts are that not one furloughed pilot was held back from recall by green slips. You can call me names but you can't change the facts.
Alfa,
My apologies - I was referring to DALPA being perfect, not you, and it obviously was not very clear - my bad. As to being able to disagree - I agree
we can disagree and still be civil.You will never be able to convince me that it is OK to perform overtime work with Pilots on furlough. I totally disagree with this concept. As Denny said time to move on. Call me stubborn or obstinate, fine I get it. You can make distinctions about being understaffed vs Thunderstorms OK. I guess that is the difference between an Association and a Union.
I really didn't even mind being furloughed (notwithstanding the two exceptions listed below) I realize that a company may have to furlough in down times for its own good. However there were two points about the furlough that did bother me:
1. Pilots greesn-slipping.
2. DCI hiring by the thousands while DAL furloughed.
Obviously the no- furlough clause was not that great - although it did eventually contribute to guys getting recalled. And maybe DALPA even wised up replacing the no-furlough clause with economic penalties - removing seats from RJs etc. As I have said DALPA did some good things at this time - Medical care for furloughees is just one example.
But I will never change my mind on Pilots green-slipping with other Pilots on furlough - in my humble opinion it is flat out wrong.
Scoop
09-01-2013, 11:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Not 100% on the following but,
7ER is mostly out of JFK, but also has some LGA trips. It also fly a good amount of domestic as well. Word is top 20-30% of category can hold international more or less.
320 not too sure, but similar to the 88 with maybe a few more EWR trips. 88 and 320 tend to switch trips with each others' a categories throughout the year.
The 744 seems to be a really good deal especially for local guys. Small category and high time trips to some of the nicer destinations.
Not sure where your coming in seniority wise, but I'm guessing with your drive holding a line and minimizing low time trips is key.
Hope this helps, best of luck and thanks for your service.
09-01-2013, 12:43 PM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,743
Has anyone had any luck getting a Telex 850 repaired? I think the Headset Dr in ATL doesn't fix things anymore, no idea where to go.
09-01-2013, 02:16 PM
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
ALPA was a part of the decision process?
So ALPA decided to not recall pilots when there was an option on the table to do so?
Why wouldn't you (since apparently you had a seat at the table) let guys come back in hopes that the company might not need to re-furlough him? If he was back and trained, it might have been to costly for the company to send him out again, and he might have been able to stay. If even one guy had a chance to stay, why not try?
I can't believe how cavalierly you state that "you" made a decision to leave guys on the street when "you" could have brought them back.
Last edited by Purple Drank; 09-01-2013 at 02:44 PM.
09-01-2013, 02:25 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: B77FO
Posts: 105
Its been a few years but I sent mine back to telex, after I broke them by the ear cup on the boom side. And I think for around $100 they were fixed and overhauled. With a quick turn around as well.
09-01-2013, 02:26 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,306
I sent a 3 year old 850 into Telex a couple years ago and they fixed it and completely refurbished it at no charge. Worth a call at least.
09-01-2013, 02:59 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 351
"We?"
ALPA was a part of the decision process?
So ALPA decided to not recall pilots when there was an option on the table to do so?
Why wouldn't you (since apparently you had a seat at the table) let guys come back in hopes that the company might not need to re-furlough him? If he was back and trained, it might have been to costly for the company to send him out again, and he might have been able to stay. If even one guy had a chance to stay, why not try?
I can't believe how cavalierly you state that "you" made a decision to leave guys on the street when "you" could have brought them back.
ALPA was a part of the decision process?
So ALPA decided to not recall pilots when there was an option on the table to do so?
Why wouldn't you (since apparently you had a seat at the table) let guys come back in hopes that the company might not need to re-furlough him? If he was back and trained, it might have been to costly for the company to send him out again, and he might have been able to stay. If even one guy had a chance to stay, why not try?
I can't believe how cavalierly you state that "you" made a decision to leave guys on the street when "you" could have brought them back.
09-01-2013, 03:10 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
"We?"
ALPA was a part of the decision process?
So ALPA decided to not recall pilots when there was an option on the table to do so?
Why wouldn't you (since apparently you had a seat at the table) let guys come back in hopes that the company might not need to re-furlough him? If he was back and trained, it might have been to costly for the company to send him out again, and he might have been able to stay. If even one guy had a chance to stay, why not try?
I can't believe how cavalierly you state that "you" made a decision to leave guys on the street when "you" could have brought them back.
ALPA was a part of the decision process?
So ALPA decided to not recall pilots when there was an option on the table to do so?
Why wouldn't you (since apparently you had a seat at the table) let guys come back in hopes that the company might not need to re-furlough him? If he was back and trained, it might have been to costly for the company to send him out again, and he might have been able to stay. If even one guy had a chance to stay, why not try?
I can't believe how cavalierly you state that "you" made a decision to leave guys on the street when "you" could have brought them back.
Seeing as the staffing was short for the summer to begin with and hiring was planned to start this late fall, any recall pilots could surely have not been re-furloughed. You'd be talking about furloughing less than 3 months.
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