Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
And this is exactly why DALPA's reputation is waning. With the leverage we had as stated by you above, we got COLA pay raises fully funded by productivity concessions and profit sharing reductions. 5 LEC reps agreed and stated it was why they weren't voting yes for C2012. Yet DALPA still defends the actions to the hilt, calls a competing organization a "scourge" and complains about everyone misunderstanding their use of the term "our fair share of the flying."
This is just part of DALPA's current disconnect with its members.
Carl
This is just part of DALPA's current disconnect with its members.
Carl
What really bothers me the most about all this is that even if everything we were told was true, about the company possibly having "over extended" themselves with 500+ 50 seat RJs, more outsourced 90 seat jets configured with 76 seats as the financial Rosetta stone to the companies problem, etc...
These are all issues for the corporate officers, Board of Directors and the Shareholders. Yes, their not so good decisions will certainly adversely affect the units of labor, but nowhere in any corporate structure that I'm aware of does a unit of labor stand on equal footing in capital expenditure decisions/mistakes as the Corporation's officers, directors and shareholders.
The fact that we, as labor, had to self finance to a certain extent our "participation" by conceding in parts of our contract with management is adding insult to injury.
My hope for the future is that we don't engage in further scope "adjustments" as part of the companies capital expenditure program.
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,991
This is where you are just factually wrong. There was a short period of time when green slips went out to the categories they were furloughing from mainly because guys were burning through their sick leave before getting furloughed. Then there was a long period of time with virtually no green slips. In 2005, while waiting for PBS and the new scheduling system to be implemented there were a lot of green slips. This was to avoid a double furlough. If pilots were recalled to fill summer 2005, they faced a second furlough when the efficiencies were implemented. The decision was made to stay short staffed for the summer to avoid this. Other than these two brief period there were almost no green slips.
So how does this make me wrong? Are you denying that the Status-quo regarding greesn-slips changed? We now had had no "status quo." Status-quo is what shut down the no Green-slip campaign earlier. DALPA had another chance and choose not to pursue it. Maybe the reason was to avoid a double furlough as you say above but I doubt they would have been able to furlough without guys flying green-slips.
I was furloughed, then recalled and hundreds were still furloughed. I remember tons of Greesn-slips going out this time and DALPA was OK with it.
Any other furloughed guys remember Green-slips going out at this time?
Its really not worth arguing at this point. Most realize that DALPA will never, ever admit that it could have actually done something just a little bit better .............ever.
It must be nice to be perfect.
Scoop
Remember it very well. Also remember the excuses. "Well, I'm sorry, but with these pay-cuts I need to make up the difference so I can keep all the stuff I immediately went out and bought after C2001."
The green slips in Orlando were flowing heavy.
I also remember what no-furlough language we had at the time being erased out of the contract with thousands on the street.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Yep-got completely played. DALs market capitalization has increased by $7 Billion since the contract ratification. Historic profits, stock options payouts, stock buy backs, dividend payments and dalpa fell for the bluff at the poker table that there was simply no more $$$ to be had. And even after the hands have been flopped on the table, dalpa still defends its playing of the hand?
You quoted a guy on my ignore list talking about "cola pay raises". Contract 2012 puts his super premium pay rate at $270.25 plus 15% DC on 1/1/15. The highest pay rate he ever had prior to the merger was $264.96 plus 3% MPPP. BTW, it's still not enough.
You quoted those pay raises were "fully funded by productivity concessions and profit sharing reductions". The net productivity increase was about 125 jobs across a 10,500 pilot system. The profit sharing transition to pay ranged from $0 at no profit to $42 million at $2.5 billion in profit. The C2012 pay rate/DC increases were over 20% and worth $400 million annually in 2015. Not "fully funded", "cost neutral" or "offset" by a long shot.
So the cards are on the table. You didn't read the hands right.
Last edited by slowplay; 09-01-2013 at 06:56 AM.
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
You quoted those pay raises were "fully funded by productivity concessions and profit sharing reductions". The net productivity increase was about 125 jobs across a 10,500 pilot system. The profit sharing transition to pay ranged from $0 at no profit to $42 million at $2.5 billion in profit. The C2012 pay rate increases were over $400 million in 2015. Not "fully funded", "cost neutral" or "offset" by a long shot.
So the cards are on the table. You didn't read the hands right.
And it's impossible to put a number on the QOL loss suffered from ALV+15, 7 short calls, sick leave harassment, I could go on.
See above
Again, not a single Delta pilot is signing on to an independent union to help avenge a vendetta from Tim. Don't you see how you sound when you/DALPA talk this way?
Carl
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 841
I guess it's Dragon Con time here in the A T L. Summary: it's okay to pick on Moak, not so okay to pick on Caplinger, kinda okay to pick on Kingsley and then everyone tore apart the 76 seat section based on a rumor of 717 issues and there's still that widebody rumor to be squashed and no one cares that dues are going to go up if the DPA takes over in the next 8 months.
took delivery of 8 new aircraft while still in chapter 11 bankruptcy and Delta had no new deliveries.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
So how does this make me wrong? Are you denying that the Status-quo regarding greesn-slips changed? We now had had no "status quo." Status-quo is what shut down the no Green-slip campaign earlier. DALPA had another chance and choose not to pursue it. Maybe the reason was to avoid a double furlough as you say above but I doubt they would have been able to furlough without guys flying green-slips.
I was furloughed, then recalled and hundreds were still furloughed. I remember tons of Greesn-slips going out this time and DALPA was OK with it.
Any other furloughed guys remember Green-slips going out at this time?
Its really not worth arguing at this point. Most realize that DALPA will never, ever admit that it could have actually done something just a little bit better .............ever.
It must be nice to be perfect.
Scoop
I was furloughed, then recalled and hundreds were still furloughed. I remember tons of Greesn-slips going out this time and DALPA was OK with it.
Any other furloughed guys remember Green-slips going out at this time?
Its really not worth arguing at this point. Most realize that DALPA will never, ever admit that it could have actually done something just a little bit better .............ever.
It must be nice to be perfect.
Scoop
In the future, the form if furlough mitigation we need is actually to prevent GS AND WS flying above some threshold (ALV or your line award). Would protect us from the company and ourselves.
How does this fit into current events, anyway? What we did then was disgusting, but it wasn't done against the will of the group. We all know it's wrong to have ANY extra flying during furloughs, but we never ask for it to be negotiated into a contract. I would bet the % of pilots that ask for meaningful furlough protections in their top priorities is probably less than 15%.
I think Alfa is incorrect in downplaying GS availability during that time (but I'm going by personal experience, and maybe he has better data). I think the true story is probably more about ALPA faithfully representing the will of the pilot group. Which reveals the ugly side of the group, not the union.
Last edited by Sink r8; 09-01-2013 at 07:27 AM.
Scoop and Jay5150,
First of all I'm sorry you guys ended up getting furloughed, it sucked.
Here is how I remember it. Yes guys were flying green slips while you were out on furlough. I don't think they should have been doing it. Unfortunately there is that pesky "status quo" thingy with the NMB and we had the 49ers to prove that Delta would come after the Union and individuals in court to enforce this. I think there is at least one of them that frequents this forum. He could tell you more.
That being said, I pretty sure the price of a green slip from 2X to 1.5X and the "Furlough Protection Letter" were a result of the side letter of agreement (46 I think) that took effect in Nov. 2004 to try to avoid bankruptcy. At the time I thought it was essentially a new contract. The "Furlough Protection Letter" was a casualty of the Bankruptcy process. One thing I would like to know, if we have/had such great lawyers, why didn't they know the "Furlough Protection Letter" wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
The following is not aimed at you guys, it's just my feelings. This is all behind us and I choose to look forward rather than dwell in the past. I know that "those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it." I'm all for trying to correct the inequities of the contract and hopefully we will. I am very optimistic about the future of our Company and what we should be able to negotiate in our next contract.
And like someone else said, I'm very thankful that, after 25 years, I STILL ENJOY GOING TO WORK! (Granted, we would all like to be independently wealthy and not have to work!) I know most all, if not all, of you out there in APC Land can say the same thing. That's a testament to this pilot group. Truthfully, how many people in other industries can honestly say that they enjoy going to work?
I'll get off the soapbox now. Move along, nothing to see here.....
Denny
First of all I'm sorry you guys ended up getting furloughed, it sucked.
Here is how I remember it. Yes guys were flying green slips while you were out on furlough. I don't think they should have been doing it. Unfortunately there is that pesky "status quo" thingy with the NMB and we had the 49ers to prove that Delta would come after the Union and individuals in court to enforce this. I think there is at least one of them that frequents this forum. He could tell you more.
That being said, I pretty sure the price of a green slip from 2X to 1.5X and the "Furlough Protection Letter" were a result of the side letter of agreement (46 I think) that took effect in Nov. 2004 to try to avoid bankruptcy. At the time I thought it was essentially a new contract. The "Furlough Protection Letter" was a casualty of the Bankruptcy process. One thing I would like to know, if we have/had such great lawyers, why didn't they know the "Furlough Protection Letter" wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
The following is not aimed at you guys, it's just my feelings. This is all behind us and I choose to look forward rather than dwell in the past. I know that "those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it." I'm all for trying to correct the inequities of the contract and hopefully we will. I am very optimistic about the future of our Company and what we should be able to negotiate in our next contract.
And like someone else said, I'm very thankful that, after 25 years, I STILL ENJOY GOING TO WORK! (Granted, we would all like to be independently wealthy and not have to work!) I know most all, if not all, of you out there in APC Land can say the same thing. That's a testament to this pilot group. Truthfully, how many people in other industries can honestly say that they enjoy going to work?
I'll get off the soapbox now. Move along, nothing to see here.....
Denny
Last edited by Denny Crane; 09-01-2013 at 07:41 AM.
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