Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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08-30-2013, 12:34 PM

#138261

forgot to bid

veut gagner à la loterie

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: Light Chop

Posts: 23,286

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Yes, he has. Politically smart.

But, a case could be made that DPA supporters have committed acts which are contrary to the best interest of the association and its members and propose to circumvent and interfere with our collective bargaining.

We are a union hence we benefit by embracing all brothers in unity. The Master Chairman is correct, but just know there are rules against what is going on here by the DPA.

Not that the DPA really cares about ALPA's rules ... but it is a consideration I think most of us who want change at least consider ... a way to keep things positive so the outcome for the Delta pilots is never jeopardized.

So there are ALPA rules that prevent pilots who pay for ALPA to fire ALPA?

08-30-2013, 12:37 PM

#138262

Bucking Bar

Can't abide NAI

Joined APC: Jun 2007

Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler

Posts: 12,037

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Then you should immediately demand change from the law that allows for members to pursue the possibility of voting to change representation. Perhaps even move to expel people like me from ALPA?

Carl

I'd never do that for the same reason they never came after me. You and I aren't the people they want to give a microphone, an appeals process and access to an Executive Board to.

08-30-2013, 12:39 PM

#138263

Bucking Bar

Can't abide NAI

Joined APC: Jun 2007

Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler

Posts: 12,037

Quote:

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

So there are ALPA rules that prevent pilots who pay for ALPA to fire ALPA?

Of course. One of the rules of any club, corporation, or group is not to take action to destroy that group.

Nobody's going after anybody ... just pointing out that it's there.

08-30-2013, 12:56 PM

#138264

DAWGS

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Dec 2007

Position: No to large RJs

Posts: 369

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Whether there's a conflict of interest is not even in question Bar. You and ALPA simply argue that they are managing the conflict fairly. Some of us disagree.

The coordination of interest that built our union was one of unifying the airline pilot occupation. It never would have considered the sale of one person's job to another a "coordinated interest." It fought against the New York Air's and other alter-ego airlines of the time. Now ALPA has expressly signed on to an alter ego airline. And it did so without any member putting forth a resolution to promote alter ego airlines.

In the view of this old guy, we've come a long way from our distinguished past.

Carl

Man it's great to have you back!

08-30-2013, 03:10 PM

#138265

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Carl,

Obviously our Reps were different here at Delta, but Northwest was on board at the time as well. FWIW, Tim Caplinger's reasoning is founded in what our MEC's were putting out in 2000; specifically:

We do not want mergers with our express carriers forced on us
We do not want to lower our standards to theirs
Military pilots would never want to start their mainline career on Regional Jets at RJ pay
The express pilots are not qualified to be us

All of which adds up to, lets remove the triggers from ALPA's merger policy, lets not make that fight, lets keep ourselves separate from them. That division in our union resulted in Tim Caplinger getting furloughed while NWA's feeders were hiring to perform flying within the brand. That division is the perceived "conflict of interest" and it was created by our MEC Chairman and Reps back in the day. The timing is weird. I figured this would boil over during the bad times when bad policy was forcing the loss of Delta pilot jobs, yet this is getting hot just as we begin hiring and taking back scope.

The DPA is ironically, an old ugly ALPA Admin chicken that has simply returned to it's roost.

Not that I'm willing to give the DPA credit, but to claim the moral high ground of unity, ALPA has to return to it's representational roots.

Bar, that is not what has defined ALPA's conflict of interest and you must know that. What I've bolded above is nothing more than ALPA's decisions on what to do with airlines to whom we'd already surrendered branded flying.

What does define ALPA's conflict of interest is the fact that ALPA courted (and won) the right to represent the airlines to whom branded flying had been surrendered. ALPA was under no obligation to do that. ALPA chose to do that, and as such, constructed their conflict of interest.

Can we at least agree on just those facts?

Carl

08-30-2013, 03:31 PM

#138266

TANSTAAFL

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Dec 2009

Position: Still in one

Posts: 784

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Of course. One of the rules of any club, corporation, or group is not to take action to destroy that group.

Nobody's going after anybody ... just pointing out that it's there.

So your saying that after democratically deciding to elect ALPA as their collective bargaining agent, a pilot group no longer has the democratic right to vote them out and elect another bargaining agent without fear of union discipline? Really?

Please cite your references, chapter and paragraph from ALPA source documents and federal code supporting that position.

Last edited by TANSTAAFL; 08-30-2013 at 03:47 PM.

08-30-2013, 03:45 PM

#138267

Wasatch Phantom

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Posts: 581

I sent my DPA renewal card in...

Is DPA the answer? Truthfully I'm not sure, but I welcome the debate a representational election would trigger.

People castigate Tim Caplinger yet Lee Moak is given a free pass for endorsing the Pinnacle/DAL management backroom deal. To me that's a double standard, something I abhor.

Bar preaches unity, yet we don't see that practiced by ALPA national...

08-30-2013, 03:59 PM

#138268

Pro Fessional

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Apr 2009

Posts: 187

Well said. I've lost count of the guys who have told me that they signed cards but would never really vote for DPA. They just want to "put pressure on ALAP." Mission accomplished.

08-30-2013, 04:06 PM

#138269

Scoop

Moderator

Joined APC: Dec 2007

Position: DAL 330

Posts: 6,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasatch Phantom

Debate is good. For a long time it appears that DALPA has taken the Delta Pilot group for granted.

Individual DALPA members themselves are mostly stellar people and very hard working. However, DALPA as a whole can often come off very condescending towards the Pilot group. I have never in 14 years seen any official DALPA communication ever even hint at them performing anything but flawlessly.

I can think of a few times where it would have be refreshing to hear from DALPA something like "In hindsight we probably should have done that a little differently." Its as if they think admitting any thing other perfection would be a calamity. Just the opposite in my opinion, a little humility can go a long way.

DALPA does appears to be trying a little harder, but you can make the argument that this is because of the DPA.

Scoop

08-30-2013, 04:08 PM

#138270

Jack Bauer

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Jun 2007

Posts: 1,357

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasatch Phantom

An excellent point. Lee Moak, the Godfather of RJ outsourcing. The ALPA proponents conveniently overlook this. Maybe there is no outrage among them because "it was going to happen anyway so might as well get on board and push it along".