nerd2009

I will never forget that the only reason I'm standing here today is because somebody, somewhere stood up for me when it was risky. Stood up when it was hard. Stood up when it wasn't popular. And because that somebody stood up, a few more stood up. And then a few thousand stood up. And then a few million stood up. And standing up, with courage and clear purpose, they somehow managed to change the world.

BARACK OBAMA, speech, Jan. 8, 2008


Many ... are simply skeptical that real change can occur. There is so much fear, so much mistrust that has built up over the years. But if we choose to be bound by the past, we will never move forward. And I want to particularly say this to young people of every faith in every country. You more than anyone have the ability to reimagine the world, to remake this world.

BARACK OBAMA, speech, Jun. 4, 2009

Profound and powerful forces are shaking and remaking our world. And the urgent question of our time is whether we can make change our friend and not our enemy.

BILL CLINTON

Change quote

I know who I WAS when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then.

LEWIS CARROLL, Alice in Wonderland

If you wish to be happy, think not of what is to come nor of that which you have no control over but rather of the now and of that which you are able to change.

CHRISTOPHER PAOLINI, Brisingr

The most rigid structures, the most impervious to change, will collapse first.

ECKHART TOLLE, A New Earth

Men do change, and change comes like a little wind that ruffles the curtains at dawn, and it comes like the stealthy perfume of wildflowers hidden in the grass.

JOHN STEINBECK, Sweet Thursday

Change is the process by which the future invades our lives.

ALVIN TOFFLER, Future Shock

Every generation gets a chance to change the world
Pity the nation that won't listen to your boys and girls
Cos the sweetest melody is the one we haven't heard

U2, "I'll Go Crazy If I Don't Go Crazy Tonight"

Nothing’s gonna change my world.

THE BEATLES, Across the Universe

hitimefurl

You are trying to put words in my mouth. You are attempting to assign fault and blame to someone. ALPA isn't one person it's all of us and it's not the same people it was 10 years ago. There isn't some master plan at ALPA that the new President just picks up and executes. I am trying to say that the basic DPA structure is flawed. They say a vote is coming so I go and look at the constitution and their plan. The constitution is ready to roll, except it's far from perfect and it's in effect day one. There will be interference lawsuits and I fully expect the Teamsters or someone else to show up and they will also want access to the pilots and will file to get access which will cause this to drag out well into 2104. We could easily be in a representational vote during contract openers. Richard Anderson can just use the Doug Parker rule boo and ignore us and make us deal with the NMB and then you have the APA situation again.

I'm not blaming Caplinger I'm assigning ownership to him. There's a big difference. If ALPA chooses to respond to him (I guess they are), then he left them no choice. It's on him. He has to stand up and take the heat for what he's said. He's been running around writing on the walls for the last 3 years and signing his name on the bottom. If ALPA responds then Tim needs to take ownership of what he has done. That's not blame. You are right I am suspect of some of the volunteers they have. I'd probably be suspect of some of ours if they ran around saying we need to clean house and start from scratch as well. Clean house does not say inclusive to me.

When the few ALPA volunteers on here defend their work it's because it is personal and they have a vested interest because they actually did the work. Signing a card and checking the box next to the one thing you hate ALPA for isn't being part of a unified group. The exception here being if you actually attempted to make change happen. After you asked me this last night I went to the other site and read through all the resolutions for the last two years. They all look like issues I've seen on here and they've nearly all passed the MEC. The ones that didn't failed overwhelmingly. Some happen fast and some happen slow. There is clear evidence of resolutions being put in and passed and change happening.

Looking specifically at the Alice in Wonderland RAW bucket resolutions. one makes you bigger and one makes you smaller. The MEC asked for more information, did some polling and basically tabled it because there isn't a clear consensus right now. I agree with Scoop a few pages ago that I'm not seeing a clear cut and definitive problem and that it probably shouldn't be changed right now but we should keep an eye on it and report back.

If you or others are taking the letter from the King personally then you have some identity with the organization except there is no organization. You should have had that with ALPA at some point and if you didn't then why do you have it with the DPA? Did you every defend the work ALPA did for you, ever? ALPA has been under attack before from other unions and other independents like the PPA. The DPA followers are lumped into smaller groups of pilots that have similar issues the biggest of which is the conflict of interest and who doesn't get that one? Every major union in America that represents multiple employee groups is accused of the same thing. State unions that represent police, fire, janitors and security guards have the same concerns but the fact is unions are dying and pooling of assets for a greater good should work.

i started this by trying to hilite that there are significant structure issues with the organization. Look at the MCF arguments he keeps throwing out. The MCF isn't depleted because of just some lawsuits and it's very pertinent on the anniversary of the NWA strike. The MCF payed out $8.5 million to CAL, $10.6 million to UAL, $63.3 million to EAL, $8.4 million to TWA, $3.8 million to UAL, $4.8 million to NWA, $6.1 million to DAL. You want to know where $100,000,000 of MCF dues money went? It went to mainline airlines for them to do business. It's not a missing asset as the DPA claims, it was used to fight the fight.

The American pilots had to come up with $40 million of their own money when they got injunctified by the TX courts. Between the MCF and Kitty Hawk there is no plan in place to replace an asset like those for when we do get sued or there is an injunction. The Captain Jake lawsuit with a bunch of retirees went away a few years ago but it asked to take back every single dollar of note and claim money and redistribute it in a way they felt was right to all the pilots including retired ones. It failed but that kind of lawsuit will come up again as there will always be an angry pilot and a lawyer to take his money. The DPA recognizes this fact because they recruited the DP3 guys into the Retired Pilots Group (RPG) in an effort to get more numbers and more money for the fight. If you read the DPA material they want to spend more contract money on providing retirement benefits. That's a mixed bag at best. There is no restoration in pay if you allocate that money to retiree benefits until they die. That issue alone could take this whole thread. There should be a job for new guys when they get here and guys that retiree should be able to do so.

You are asking me to give you an answer on how to fix all the individuals (each pilot associated with the DPA has a different issue) problems with ALPA and not addressing that there are serious flaws with the DPA plan. A dues increase to 2.25% for Section 6 until such time the event is over without MEMERAT is not an improvement in basic daily business. It's an automatic assessment. Today we get to vote on those. Before you say we can fix the constitution I say how? The constitution building survey is over. One of the often repeated comments in the survey is why did you increase the FPL of reps? Where's the outrage here on the increased FPL? There's still considerable envy of current FPL even though it's no where near the level the new DPA FPL rules are.

ALPA is an evolving organization. It got cold cocked by deregulation and was slow to respond, but it did it with gusto. The Texas Air event was a watershed event and a change in the way the organization worked. It grew into a reactive bloated group in the 90's and then it's turned into a proactive association that has cut and trimmed many expenditures and it shows. It takes time to make this happen and I believe the proactive forward thinking and calling a spade what it is approach from D.C. right now is what ALPA should be doing. The regional vs mainline stuff is sorting itself out as the market has to deal with the inefficiencies. There will either be only one regional or all regionals will be inside their parent group before this is all done. Do you want to force that or let market forces take care of it for you? There are other battles to fight while that natural progression takes place.

No one believes ALPA is perfect. Not even Lee Moak (I'm guessing) but nothing about the DPA breaking the union at Delta, and at United and at JetBlue says to me this is a good idea for the Delta pilots. It says that I'm ****ed at ALPA and want it gone and I'm willing to help anyone and everyone to achieve the destruction of ALPA and not the building of an independent union at Delta. Giving you material to management at JetBlue and the angry United pilots isn't a unifty builder at Delta. It's clearly a conflict in the mission. It's a way to destroy ALPA at any cost. It's a management asset for the next round of negotiations which we are starting in 2014! A split at UAL and DAL while APA/USAPA are down means that we can not pull the Delta Dot back up. I'd get behind an ALPA services company and I'm not sure that's not where they are headed anyway judging by the amount of services provided to other groups right now but that's not what the DPA is advertising.

You want to go down the DPA talking list point by point again? That's fine but there's hundreds of pages here about that already and it doesn't fix the fact that the day one plan for DPA isn't viable for taking over. That should be an issue if you really support a new group. It's supposed to be a better ALPA, better run and better thought out. It isn't. It's time for everyone to use their energy and anger and time spent on here alone (none of you sleep or fly as far as I can tell) and get to work on the evolution of our current member driven association.

MoonShot

DOH!!!!!!!!

Bucking Bar

There was a resolution. It was the resolution that removed the term "operational integration" in our merger policy. Unfortunately, I do not have the exact reference at hand, but someone who was at our 2000 BOD meeting might know it.

Bucking Bar

Yes, he has. Politically smart.

But, a case could be made that DPA supporters have committed acts which are contrary to the best interest of the association and its members and propose to circumvent and interfere with our collective bargaining.

We are a union hence we benefit by embracing all brothers in unity. The Master Chairman is correct, but just know there are rules against what is going on here by the DPA.

Not that the DPA really cares about ALPA's rules ... but it is a consideration I think most of us who want change at least consider ... a way to keep things positive so the outcome for the Delta pilots is never jeopardized.

iceman49

So you're the one...congrats!!!!!!!!!

capncrunch

Not a good case....

Carl Spackler

I'd like you and I to not stray off our subject Bar. Merger policy (or any wording removed) has nothing to do with ALPA national signing off on the establishment of an alter ego airline. Establishing alter ego airlines was not a resolution bubbling up from the ALPA membership. ALPA leadership did this on their own.

You're claiming that ALPA's actions today are still in alignment with principles upon which our union was founded. Specifically, a "coordination of interests." Selling another person's job has never been considered coordinated interests at our union...until now. I walked a picket line in 1980 at LGA to support the ALPA fight against Frank Lorenzo's New York Air alter ego airline. That's the ALPA I began my career with. Now I'm ending it with an ALPA that helps facilitate alter ego airlines and the selling of one person's job to another.

So I'll look forward to your finding the resolution showing member support for ALPA to start helping airlines establish alter ego versions of themselves.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Then you should immediately demand change from the law that allows for members to pursue the possibility of voting to change representation. Perhaps even move to expel people like me from ALPA?

Carl

Bucking Bar

Carl,

Obviously our Reps were different here at Delta, but Northwest was on board at the time as well. FWIW, Tim Caplinger's reasoning is founded in what our MEC's were putting out in 2000; specifically:

• We do not want mergers with our express carriers forced on us
• We do not want to lower our standards to theirs
• Military pilots would never want to start their mainline career on Regional Jets at RJ pay
• The express pilots are not qualified to be us

All of which adds up to, lets remove the triggers from ALPA's merger policy, lets not make that fight, lets keep ourselves separate from them. That division in our union resulted in Tim Caplinger getting furloughed while NWA's feeders were hiring to perform flying within the brand. That division is the perceived "conflict of interest" and it was created by our MEC Chairman and Reps back in the day. The timing is weird. I figured this would boil over during the bad times when bad policy was forcing the loss of Delta pilot jobs, yet this is getting hot just as we begin hiring and taking back scope.

The DPA is ironically, an old ugly ALPA Admin chicken that has simply returned to it's roost.

Not that I'm willing to give the DPA credit, but to claim the moral high ground of unity, ALPA has to return to it's representational roots.