Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-13-2013, 04:54 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
Or perhaps they've run into another SNAFU (like last month?) or haven't fully fixed last mo's snafu?
The trip mix and manning have been pretty stable in my category, plenty of reserves, so they usually get done pretty quickly, but still nothing, leads me to believe there's something going on in the system, re. snafu.
08-13-2013, 04:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 403
Speaking of commuting and reserve, I propose in the next contract we use the VALUE provided to the company by commuters in allowing the airline the scheduling flexibility they tout and desire.
The company has whittled down training to almost nothing. There is no impediment to continually jack the with lives of pilots on the bottom of each category. For this group of pilots, commuting has become a way of life, along with multiple aircraft and base changes.
How to accomplish this and change the mentality of those believing the "commuter's choice" is for smarter heads than mine.
The company has whittled down training to almost nothing. There is no impediment to continually jack the with lives of pilots on the bottom of each category. For this group of pilots, commuting has become a way of life, along with multiple aircraft and base changes.
How to accomplish this and change the mentality of those believing the "commuter's choice" is for smarter heads than mine.
This airline is industry leading in commuting issues, IMO.
Just a differing opinion, which I know won't be popular.
08-13-2013, 05:06 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Right now on ATL 88 B I don't think anyone on reserve is getting a chance to sit SC.
08-13-2013, 05:10 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Here's a question, how does having a straight seniority system increase staffing?
08-13-2013, 05:27 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
As always, the devil is in the details. If it were up to the company, every reserve pilot would fly to the ALV+2, because that's what they are being paid. If they fly say, 58hrs. per month, but are being paid 78, well, the company doesn't like giving away 20 hours pay, to every reserve, every month.
Under our (old, old, old) reserve system, a senior reserve would put in a Low Yellow Slip, and sit home, while the junior reserve guys, who were going to fly anyway, would put in a High Yellow Slip, to try to fill up ASAP, then take the rest of the month off.
The company figured out they were paying the senior guys 70 hours per month to sit home, while also paying the Junior guys well above 70.
They realized they could save a lot of money, both in pay and benefits (and body count) if all the reserves flew to the res. guarantee, not a minute over, instead of some guys going way over, while others were way under.
About 15 years ago I was at a base meeting where the then head of Crew Resources was speaking, he said, "If it were up to me, every reserve would fly at least 70hrs. per month!" (that was the res. guarantee then).
I raised my hand and asked him, "If you plan to staff the airline in such a way that you need every reserve to fly 70 per month, just to fly a normal schedule, what are you going to do when you have a weather event, and NEED RESERVE PILOTS??"
He said, "That's what Green Slips are for."
Fast fwd. to bankruptcy, what's one of the first things they did? Got rid of High/Low yellow slips on reserve!
If every reserve was flying to the ALV+2 today, they could get rid of about 10% of our pilot group tomorrow.
08-13-2013, 05:39 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
I suppose it will be just as hard to accomplish as changing the mindset of commuting pilots to understand that not everyone at the airline commutes, and perhaps locals don't necessarily want every bit of negotiating capital going to making sure commuting pilots get picked up at their residence in a limo, flown first class to their base, and then taken in a Porsche SUV to their gate for their trip, and subsequently flown home in 1st class and limo'd to their home. Reserve and shortfall for locals.
This airline is industry leading in commuting issues, IMO.
Just a differing opinion, which I know won't be popular.
This airline is industry leading in commuting issues, IMO.
Just a differing opinion, which I know won't be popular.
I've been commuting for...17 of my 28 years, beginning back when we didn't even get to ride on our own Jumpseats! I know it's a choice, a choice I made when the company closed my bases. Pack my stuff and move to ATL, or commute.
My wife and 4 kids chose...you Commute Dad!
But it has gotten MUCH easier to commute in the last couple years, we have the jumpseat (unless it's an RJ!) and now with the call in honest and positive space seat when DV8 DH, etc. it has become much, much easier.
I've always said Short Call days should pay Duty Credit, ie. on call 12 hours? 6 hours pay towards filling up. 6 short calls? 36 hours towards filling up. And let the pilots bid for them, just like X days. That way, an ATL Local Pilot could bid for Short Call and make some extra money, while a commuter could not bid them, if he so desires.
There is no perfect solution, and just when you think you've got it figured it out, the company can and will move your equipment out of your base on a Marketing Whim, but it's gotten a whole lot better over the past 20 years. (except during the bankruptcy years!). What helps is if you bid to where you can hold commutable trips, ie. late sign in's early returns.
The NYC MD88 has always been ugly, that's why I didn't bid Capt. on it when they closed BOS in 1996, I "Chose to Commute" to ATL MD11 F/O, where every trip signed in after 3pm. I had already commuted to CVG to be the plug reserve 88 Capt. in 1992, I'd had enough of that! The plane sucked, the trips sucked, and we didn't even have jumpseat access until 1996. When I got displaced off it, I was the happiest guy in the room!
So unless you are stuck in the bottom of the bottom category, both commuting and sitting reserve are a choice. Choose wisely grasshopper.
Last edited by Timbo; 08-13-2013 at 05:58 AM.
08-13-2013, 05:57 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
And regarding my last statement, it was a general statement on the whole notion of "fair" or "equal" or any other such descriptor in an entirely seniority based world using the context of currently discussed reserve. I find the concept of "fair" and "equal" a little contradictory to an entirely seniority based system. Kinda like alpa representing majors and regionals at the same time. Can't do it "fairly." One group gains flying, the other loses it. That was not a statement saying zero flying vs doing all the work is fair.
Do we seriously need to go through this again johnso? Actually, on second thought, please do me a favor and put me on ignore.
And before anyone accuses me of "pulling up the ladder" or such notion, I am still in the bottom 10% of the seniority list 12 years after hired.
And before anyone accuses me of "pulling up the ladder" or such notion, I am still in the bottom 10% of the seniority list 12 years after hired.
But as I said before, I think we are actually in agreement. I certainly wasn't accusing you of pulling up the ladder. I apologize for directing my rant at you.
08-13-2013, 06:18 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 403
I've been commuting for...17 of my 28 years, beginning back when we didn't even get to ride on our own Jumpseats! I know it's a choice, a choice I made when the company closed my bases. Pack my stuff and move to ATL, or commute.
My wife and 4 kids chose...you Commute Dad!
But it has gotten MUCH easier to commute in the last couple years, we have the jumpseat (unless it's an RJ!) and now with the call in honest and positive space seat when DV8 DH, etc. it has become much, much easier.
I've always said Short Call days should pay Duty Credit, ie. on call 12 hours? 6 hours pay towards filling up. 6 short calls? 36 hours towards filling up. And let the pilots bid for them, just like X days. That way, an ATL Local Pilot could bid for Short Call and make some extra money, while a commuter could not bid them, if he so desires.
There is no perfect solution, and just when you think you've got it figured it out, the company can and will move your equipment out of your base on a Marketing Whim, but it's gotten a whole lot better over the past 20 years. (except during the bankruptcy years!). What helps is if you bid to where you can hold commutable trips, ie. late sign in's early returns.
The NYC MD88 has always been ugly, that's why I didn't bid Capt. on it when they closed BOS in 1996, I "Chose to Commute" to ATL MD11 F/O, where every trip signed in after 3pm. I had already commuted to CVG to be the plug reserve 88 Capt. in 1992, I'd had enough of that! The plane sucked, the trips sucked, and we didn't even have jumpseat access until 1996. When I got displaced off it, I was the happiest guy in the room!
So unless you are stuck in the bottom of the bottom category, both commuting and sitting reserve are a choice. Choose wisely grasshopper.
My wife and 4 kids chose...you Commute Dad!
But it has gotten MUCH easier to commute in the last couple years, we have the jumpseat (unless it's an RJ!) and now with the call in honest and positive space seat when DV8 DH, etc. it has become much, much easier.
I've always said Short Call days should pay Duty Credit, ie. on call 12 hours? 6 hours pay towards filling up. 6 short calls? 36 hours towards filling up. And let the pilots bid for them, just like X days. That way, an ATL Local Pilot could bid for Short Call and make some extra money, while a commuter could not bid them, if he so desires.
There is no perfect solution, and just when you think you've got it figured it out, the company can and will move your equipment out of your base on a Marketing Whim, but it's gotten a whole lot better over the past 20 years. (except during the bankruptcy years!). What helps is if you bid to where you can hold commutable trips, ie. late sign in's early returns.
The NYC MD88 has always been ugly, that's why I didn't bid Capt. on it when they closed BOS in 1996, I "Chose to Commute" to ATL MD11 F/O, where every trip signed in after 3pm. I had already commuted to CVG to be the plug reserve 88 Capt. in 1992, I'd had enough of that! The plane sucked, the trips sucked, and we didn't even have jumpseat access until 1996. When I got displaced off it, I was the happiest guy in the room!
So unless you are stuck in the bottom of the bottom category, both commuting and sitting reserve are a choice. Choose wisely grasshopper.
Agree with it all. I guess the reasonable pilot gets lost in the chaff of the loudmouths who think that call in honest doesn't work either because, gasp, they don't get paid for the trip. Or the bucket system isn't fair because they are junior.
Personally, I would like us to find something and stick with it because the real victims are the ones who pick their lifestyle, and then get the rug pulled out with a change in the system.
If you don't the possibility of a commute, become a teacher and get out of the airline business.
Now if I can just get you to change your views on gold a little bit.
08-13-2013, 06:22 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Sorry, but the highlighted sentence really grinds my gears. This is a job. If you want to get paid then you're going to have to WORK. This isn't a charity. It's a business. It's also our unions duty to represent and work to improve the QOL of ALL of it's pilots. So it's not ok for someone to expect the bottom of the category to do all the work while he/she sits around all month doing nothing.
According to the 44 Reps, that's not what's happening. The flying is currently distributed fairly evenly among reserves.
I do agree with several posters that short call should be included in the bucket system. It's my view that the current buckets are too small.
08-13-2013, 06:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: retired 767(dl)
Posts: 5,739
I've been commuting for...17 of my 28 years, beginning back when we didn't even get to ride on our own Jumpseats! I know it's a choice, a choice I made when the company closed my bases. Pack my stuff and move to ATL, or commute.
My wife and 4 kids chose...you Commute Dad!
But it has gotten MUCH easier to commute in the last couple years, we have the jumpseat (unless it's an RJ!) and now with the call in honest and positive space seat when DV8 DH, etc. it has become much, much easier.
I've always said Short Call days should pay Duty Credit, ie. on call 12 hours? 6 hours pay towards filling up. 6 short calls? 36 hours towards filling up. And let the pilots bid for them, just like X days. That way, an ATL Local Pilot could bid for Short Call and make some extra money, while a commuter could not bid them, if he so desires.
There is no perfect solution, and just when you think you've got it figured it out, the company can and will move your equipment out of your base on a Marketing Whim, but it's gotten a whole lot better over the past 20 years. (except during the bankruptcy years!). What helps is if you bid to where you can hold commutable trips, ie. late sign in's early returns.
The NYC MD88 has always been ugly, that's why I didn't bid Capt. on it when they closed BOS in 1996, I "Chose to Commute" to ATL MD11 F/O, where every trip signed in after 3pm. I had already commuted to CVG to be the plug reserve 88 Capt. in 1992, I'd had enough of that! The plane sucked, the trips sucked, and we didn't even have jumpseat access until 1996. When I got displaced off it, I was the happiest guy in the room!
So unless you are stuck in the bottom of the bottom category, both commuting and sitting reserve are a choice. Choose wisely grasshopper.
My wife and 4 kids chose...you Commute Dad!
But it has gotten MUCH easier to commute in the last couple years, we have the jumpseat (unless it's an RJ!) and now with the call in honest and positive space seat when DV8 DH, etc. it has become much, much easier.
I've always said Short Call days should pay Duty Credit, ie. on call 12 hours? 6 hours pay towards filling up. 6 short calls? 36 hours towards filling up. And let the pilots bid for them, just like X days. That way, an ATL Local Pilot could bid for Short Call and make some extra money, while a commuter could not bid them, if he so desires.
There is no perfect solution, and just when you think you've got it figured it out, the company can and will move your equipment out of your base on a Marketing Whim, but it's gotten a whole lot better over the past 20 years. (except during the bankruptcy years!). What helps is if you bid to where you can hold commutable trips, ie. late sign in's early returns.
The NYC MD88 has always been ugly, that's why I didn't bid Capt. on it when they closed BOS in 1996, I "Chose to Commute" to ATL MD11 F/O, where every trip signed in after 3pm. I had already commuted to CVG to be the plug reserve 88 Capt. in 1992, I'd had enough of that! The plane sucked, the trips sucked, and we didn't even have jumpseat access until 1996. When I got displaced off it, I was the happiest guy in the room!
So unless you are stuck in the bottom of the bottom category, both commuting and sitting reserve are a choice. Choose wisely grasshopper.
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