Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-12-2013, 06:38 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 589
Just "doing it through the Internet or something" would very likely result in skewed results due to self-selection bias among other problems.
I get that you specifically wanted to be asked your thoughts, but its not cost effective to call every single pilot. The MEC did that last year and it took nearly 4 months to complete the call. It is a massive effort.
All parts of the list: junior, senior, reg, rsv, etc were called. Something like 700 or 800 pilots were called to achieve a representative sample. The polling is conducted by a professional third party that had been doing this for decades:
http://www.teamsterssfo.com/items/is...MENTedited.pdf
There is nothing shady going on here. In fact, I like the fact that the MEC was responsible enough to order the poll to figure out exactly what the majority wants, in light of the conflicting resolutions.
I get that you specifically wanted to be asked your thoughts, but its not cost effective to call every single pilot. The MEC did that last year and it took nearly 4 months to complete the call. It is a massive effort.
All parts of the list: junior, senior, reg, rsv, etc were called. Something like 700 or 800 pilots were called to achieve a representative sample. The polling is conducted by a professional third party that had been doing this for decades:
http://www.teamsterssfo.com/items/is...MENTedited.pdf
There is nothing shady going on here. In fact, I like the fact that the MEC was responsible enough to order the poll to figure out exactly what the majority wants, in light of the conflicting resolutions.
08-12-2013, 06:57 PM
meh
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
Sorry, but the highlighted sentence really grinds my gears. This is a job. If you want to get paid then you're going to have to WORK. This isn't a charity. It's a business. It's also our unions duty to represent and work to improve the QOL of ALL of it's pilots. So it's not ok for someone to expect the bottom of the category to do all the work while he/she sits around all month doing nothing.
When people are in the same bucket, seniority is honored. The system absolutely honors seniority.
I'm sorry for jumping down your throat.
When people are in the same bucket, seniority is honored. The system absolutely honors seniority.
I'm sorry for jumping down your throat.
(edit-- the below isn't directed to APCLurker or anyone specifically, just generally)
We as a group are soooo beyond any possible explanation of fairness or justice with this "seniority rules everything" mentality. This seniority-pyramid scheme is like every other pyramid scheme-- it only works so long as new schmucks enter in at the bottom and float the previous schmucks upwards. There is little to no justification for it except "well I had to put up with it, now it's my turn to be king and yours to be defecated on".
The senior folks have enjoyed an absolutely unprecedented length and power of seniority with the age 65 ruling. But they perceive themselves as having not moved up from uber to Uuuuuber-senior, and so they feel justified in further scatting on the juniority. The junior schmucks have been subjected to unrelieved bottom-dwelling. The pyramid scheme has been broken.
Bidding the jet you want, in the base you want, is already such a huge benefit. Then you allow folks to get first pick of trips via PBS--another huge shifting towards unfairness and disparity of treatment from the old "line of time" method where at least the trips in a month were somewhat balanced. Then you give choice of vacations via seniority. Then you give non-revving based on seniority. Now you want MORE seniority on reserve? Wow...
The system doesn't HAVE to work this way, and seniority driving everything is NOT a given. Not everyone does it that way, and certainly in other labor groups or employee groups beyond flying it's not done that way.
While I don't have a workable alternative envisioned in perfect detail in my head, I do know that essentially asking that junior guys fill up most of their month before I had to lift a finger for work is equivalent to wearing a pink Delta hat with the words "Selfish Douche Clown" under the widget.
Last edited by Roadkill; 08-12-2013 at 07:38 PM.
08-12-2013, 07:04 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
btw= the reason for my complaining about the SC deal... It's the 12th and I've already got over 57 hours of credit. I'm nowhere near the plug anymore, too.
08-12-2013, 07:08 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 489
Sorry, but the highlighted sentence really grinds my gears. This is a job. If you want to get paid then you're going to have to WORK. This isn't a charity. It's a business. It's also our unions duty to represent and work to improve the QOL of ALL of it's pilots. So it's not ok for someone to expect the bottom of the category to do all the work while he/she sits around all month doing nothing.
When people are in the same bucket, seniority is honored. The system absolutely honors seniority.
I'm sorry for jumping down your throat.
When people are in the same bucket, seniority is honored. The system absolutely honors seniority.
I'm sorry for jumping down your throat.
I'm sorry for jumping down your throat
Where did I ever say that senior should get to sit around and do nothing while junior does it all? I agreed with scoop and others that the current system does a good job of spreading flying while honoring seniority. I even stated/agreed that the SC situation needs to be tweaked. Why do I say that? To help prevent said situation of sitting around and doing nothing while others do it all.
When people are in the same bucket, seniority is honored. The system absolutely honors seniority.
And regarding my last statement, it was a general statement on the whole notion of "fair" or "equal" or any other such descriptor in an entirely seniority based world using the context of currently discussed reserve. I find the concept of "fair" and "equal" a little contradictory to an entirely seniority based system. Kinda like alpa representing majors and regionals at the same time. Can't do it "fairly." One group gains flying, the other loses it. That was not a statement saying zero flying vs doing all the work is fair.
Do we seriously need to go through this again johnso? Actually, on second thought, please do me a favor and put me on ignore.
And before anyone accuses me of "pulling up the ladder" or such notion, I am still in the bottom 10% of the seniority list 12 years after hired.
08-12-2013, 07:19 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: DAL Pilot
Posts: 1,133
Wow! Where are you based again? Try NYC. We've got almost 45% of our category on reserve this month. I've held a line for the past 14 months and am back on reserve because the ALV was so high. Sorry to hear they're flying your butt off.
08-12-2013, 07:23 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
ATL has more 319/320 departures than any other airport in the system, but the second smallest category. So when crap hits the fan here, ATL guys pick up the slack, despite most of the flying coming in and out of town being originally covered by MSP and DTW pilots (I've only flown with one ATL captain this month- the rest were split off MSP and DTW trips).
08-12-2013, 07:30 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 589
I'm totally behind johnso on this one.
We as a group are soooo beyond any possible explanation of fairness or justice with this "seniority rules everything" mentality. This seniority-pyramid scheme is like every other pyramid scheme-- it only works so long as new schmucks enter in at the bottom and float the previous schmucks upwards. There is little to no justification for it except "well I had to put up with it, now it's my turn to be king and yours to be defecated on".
The senior folks have enjoyed an absolutely unprecedented length and power of seniority with the age 65 ruling. But they perceive themselves as having not moved up from uber to Uuuuuber-senior, and so they feel justified in further scatting on the juniority. The junior schmucks have been subjected to unrelieved bottom-dwelling. The pyramid scheme has been broken.
Bidding the jet you want, in the base you want, is already such a huge benefit. Then you allow folks to get first pick of trips via PBS--another huge shifting towards unfairness and disparity of treatment from the old "line of time" method where at least the trips in a month were somewhat balanced. Then you give choice of vacations via seniority. Then you give non-revving based on seniority. Now you want MORE seniority on reserve? Wow...
The system doesn't HAVE to work this way, and seniority driving everything is NOT a given. Not everyone does it that way, and certainly in other labor groups or employee groups beyond flying it's not done that way.
While I don't have a workable alternative envisioned in perfect detail in my head, I do know that essentially asking that junior guys fill up most of their month before I had to lift a finger for work is equivalent to wearing a pink Delta hat with the words "Selfish Douche Clown" under the widget.
We as a group are soooo beyond any possible explanation of fairness or justice with this "seniority rules everything" mentality. This seniority-pyramid scheme is like every other pyramid scheme-- it only works so long as new schmucks enter in at the bottom and float the previous schmucks upwards. There is little to no justification for it except "well I had to put up with it, now it's my turn to be king and yours to be defecated on".
The senior folks have enjoyed an absolutely unprecedented length and power of seniority with the age 65 ruling. But they perceive themselves as having not moved up from uber to Uuuuuber-senior, and so they feel justified in further scatting on the juniority. The junior schmucks have been subjected to unrelieved bottom-dwelling. The pyramid scheme has been broken.
Bidding the jet you want, in the base you want, is already such a huge benefit. Then you allow folks to get first pick of trips via PBS--another huge shifting towards unfairness and disparity of treatment from the old "line of time" method where at least the trips in a month were somewhat balanced. Then you give choice of vacations via seniority. Then you give non-revving based on seniority. Now you want MORE seniority on reserve? Wow...
The system doesn't HAVE to work this way, and seniority driving everything is NOT a given. Not everyone does it that way, and certainly in other labor groups or employee groups beyond flying it's not done that way.
While I don't have a workable alternative envisioned in perfect detail in my head, I do know that essentially asking that junior guys fill up most of their month before I had to lift a finger for work is equivalent to wearing a pink Delta hat with the words "Selfish Douche Clown" under the widget.
08-12-2013, 07:35 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 489
ATL has more 319/320 departures than any other airport in the system, but the second smallest category. So when crap hits the fan here, ATL guys pick up the slack... despite most of the flying coming in and out of town being originally covered by MSP and DTW pilots (I've only flown with one ATL captain this month- the rest were split off MSP and DTW trips).
From what I was told that may not be the case in the future. Someone said that the 320/19 is covering alot of flying in the interim that the 717 will be picking up as it comes on line. So the size of the 320 pilot base in ATL could end up being right-sized in the future for the amount of departurers. Who knows if that'll happen or was accurate info.
08-12-2013, 08:16 PM
Doing Nothing
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,316
From what I was told that may not be the case in the future. Someone said that the 320/19 is covering alot of flying in the interim that the 717 will be picking up as it comes on line. So the size of the 320 pilot base in ATL could end up being right-sized in the future for the amount of departurers. Who knows if that'll happen or was accurate info.
08-12-2013, 08:19 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
My insights into Douglas came from a number of friends who worked there in flight test. The Company's reluctance to spend money on engineering, only to spend a fortune on fixing the finished product can still be seen today in the 787 program (post merger with Douglas).
There is no advantage to the wing other than the tooling was already built. Douglas had hoped Chinese production would result in a huge MD8X/90 order from the Chinese, but that never happened. The Chinese kept the fuselage jigs and eventually had the Russians design a better wing for their ARJ-21.
The DC9 wing was OK for what it was designed to do, when it was designed to do it. Today it is a near textbook example of every error that could be made as it approaches trans sonic speeds. Mach airflow separation begins at about M 0.745. Drag increases exponentially beyond that point. Still amazing something designed for a 80,000 pound jet was being spun up to somewhere around 174,000 pounds during development of a MD90 successor.
Part of the MD11's problem was Douglas reluctance to design a new wing ....
There is no advantage to the wing other than the tooling was already built. Douglas had hoped Chinese production would result in a huge MD8X/90 order from the Chinese, but that never happened. The Chinese kept the fuselage jigs and eventually had the Russians design a better wing for their ARJ-21.
The DC9 wing was OK for what it was designed to do, when it was designed to do it. Today it is a near textbook example of every error that could be made as it approaches trans sonic speeds. Mach airflow separation begins at about M 0.745. Drag increases exponentially beyond that point. Still amazing something designed for a 80,000 pound jet was being spun up to somewhere around 174,000 pounds during development of a MD90 successor.
Part of the MD11's problem was Douglas reluctance to design a new wing ....
The original -9, as put into use by Delta Air Lines, was a masterpiece of simplicity, engineering know-how, and marketing savvy. Like the original 737, it filled a niche, and did it perfectly.
Fast forward 30 years, and the accountants have got ahold of the whole enterprise. Faster, Higher, Better is something we won't see for many, many years, if ever again. We are capable of producing supersonic, high altitude cruising and safe handling aircraft. We just don't have a national mandate to do so. And a regulatory agency that looks only backwards, rewarding mediocrity and punishing risk takers.
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