Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-07-2013, 07:41 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Maybe the 777 guys can help me out here, but I wonder if it wasn't something as simple as automation confusion?
Consider that we know the GS was out of service and that ATC seems to always keep you high on those visual approaches to the 28's. It's logical they would have been descending in FLCH (airspeed controlled by pitch and autothrottles kept at idle). If TDZ elevation was set in the altitude window while descending in FLCH, and there was no active glide slope for them to capture, what if they simply disconnected the autopilot and flew visually once they captured a visual glide path. They may have kept the autothrottles engaged thinking it would be there to hold the target approach speed for them...but autothrottles would have stayed at idle due to FLCH mode. If everyone assumed the autothrottles would do their job, and nobody was watching airspeed, that's one explanation as to how an experienced crew could have gotten so slow.
Just a thought...and could well be wrong since I don't know the 777 modes.
Carl
Consider that we know the GS was out of service and that ATC seems to always keep you high on those visual approaches to the 28's. It's logical they would have been descending in FLCH (airspeed controlled by pitch and autothrottles kept at idle). If TDZ elevation was set in the altitude window while descending in FLCH, and there was no active glide slope for them to capture, what if they simply disconnected the autopilot and flew visually once they captured a visual glide path. They may have kept the autothrottles engaged thinking it would be there to hold the target approach speed for them...but autothrottles would have stayed at idle due to FLCH mode. If everyone assumed the autothrottles would do their job, and nobody was watching airspeed, that's one explanation as to how an experienced crew could have gotten so slow.
Just a thought...and could well be wrong since I don't know the 777 modes.
Carl
NW had an airbus crew do the similar with the airbus equivalent of FLCH years back. They were below 100 feet when they entered the stall regime (slow and below path) so alpha floor protection didn't kick in (remember the tolouse lawnmower?), subsqeuently they smacked the airplane pretty dang hard into the ground.
07-07-2013, 07:43 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
I agree. I think upon the joint agreement with AA that nicolau will be implemented. They got themselves an 8 year delay... I figured they would have been smacked down long ago but kept pushing it back.
07-07-2013, 07:45 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
07-07-2013, 07:48 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
Agreed 100% 80, I think as a professional pilot we should take every opportunity we can to hone our skills and I've always found it is encouraged in low threat situations.
07-07-2013, 07:57 PM
Inventory survival kit ..
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Just saw this blurb in a NBC article.
A spokesperson for Asiana Airlines told Reuters that Xxx Xxxx-xxxx, the pilot in charge of landing the plane, was in training and it was the first time he was attempting to fly into San Francisco while manning the Boeing 777. The airline said Xxxx-xxxx had flown different planes to that airport and was also being assisted by a more experienced pilot.
Last edited by Nosmo King; 07-07-2013 at 08:05 PM. Reason: Redacted name
07-07-2013, 07:59 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
I'm very thankful for how DL encourages being a pilot. We could have a standards department like at US that frowns upon ever turning off the AT as well as requires the AP to be on for RNAV DPs.
I'll never forget on my first takeoff in the MD-88... I selected the AP on after cleanup. The LCP looked over at me and said "I would highly encourage you to handfly up to FL180... most pilots here do." Similar on the approach... "When you turn off the AP, turn off the AT- be a pilot and fly the airplane." I've had similar experience in other fleets. We really do have the top of the heap when it comes to flight standards.
07-07-2013, 08:02 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
Maybe the 777 guys can help me out here, but I wonder if it wasn't something as simple as automation confusion?
Consider that we know the GS was out of service and that ATC seems to always keep you high on those visual approaches to the 28's. It's logical they would have been descending in FLCH (airspeed controlled by pitch and autothrottles kept at idle). If TDZ elevation was set in the altitude window while descending in FLCH, and there was no active glide slope for them to capture, what if they simply disconnected the autopilot and flew visually once they captured a visual glide path. They may have kept the autothrottles engaged thinking it would be there to hold the target approach speed for them...but autothrottles would have stayed at idle due to FLCH mode. If everyone assumed the autothrottles would do their job, and nobody was watching airspeed, that's one explanation as to how an experienced crew could have gotten so slow.
Just a thought...and could well be wrong since I don't know the 777 modes.
Carl
Consider that we know the GS was out of service and that ATC seems to always keep you high on those visual approaches to the 28's. It's logical they would have been descending in FLCH (airspeed controlled by pitch and autothrottles kept at idle). If TDZ elevation was set in the altitude window while descending in FLCH, and there was no active glide slope for them to capture, what if they simply disconnected the autopilot and flew visually once they captured a visual glide path. They may have kept the autothrottles engaged thinking it would be there to hold the target approach speed for them...but autothrottles would have stayed at idle due to FLCH mode. If everyone assumed the autothrottles would do their job, and nobody was watching airspeed, that's one explanation as to how an experienced crew could have gotten so slow.
Just a thought...and could well be wrong since I don't know the 777 modes.
Carl
07-07-2013, 08:05 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Until all info (orange box, ect) are available I wont jump on the pilot error band wagon (even though It may well turn out being pilot error...or sleepy/fatigue pilot error). Any idea if Asiana uses the accelerated Ab Initio style of training where they turn pilots loose on a 777 with some sim time and a handful of hours in a Bonanza?
07-07-2013, 08:14 PM
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I'm guessing autothrottle wake-up either occurred too late if they did get the shaker. Or is there a way to override it (why they would want to I don't know)?
I can see now where people on board got the idea that the plane cartwheeled... looked like they almost flipped over and spun around about 300 degrees. It's amazing seeing the aft pressure bulkhead peeled like an orange.
I bet we're going to see even more of a push for "being a pilot" after this one...not a bad thing.
I can see now where people on board got the idea that the plane cartwheeled... looked like they almost flipped over and spun around about 300 degrees. It's amazing seeing the aft pressure bulkhead peeled like an orange.
I bet we're going to see even more of a push for "being a pilot" after this one...not a bad thing.
.....I'm already distracted. Duck Dynasty is on.
07-07-2013, 08:17 PM
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