DeadHead

Hey hypothetical question.

Is it possible to create a contract that ties in secondary raises to debt reduction thresholds?
(i.e. once company debt is reduced to $8 billion pilots get a 4% raise)

Additionally, can predetermined penalties be put in place that kick in automatically when the company fails to comply with the PWA? (scope comes to mind)

I figure logistically management would never sign off on it because of the liability that goes along with it.

finis72

Carl, we both want the same thing; a better future for every DL pilot, we just disagree on how to get there. I am one of the DPA card signers that probably needs to be renewed which I will not be doing. I still believe the threat of the DPA has made DALPA more responsive to the pilots wants and needs, competition is a good thing. My problem with the DPA has been they only attack DALPA and offer nothing new nothing original. Some of their blurbs are pure pandering, populist half truths that only a few pilots on the IQ level with Purple Dank would swallow whole. I agree we aren't yet paid what we are worth but I do believe we are near the top of US passenger airlines. You accuse Alpha of conjecture then you turn around and say we left money on the table, that is pure made up horse manure unless you happen to be on RA's senior management team. We don't know. I do agree with worrying about the purchase of Virgin and more outsourcing I just don't agree with how that was financed.

Elliot

How's that working out for you & your other delusional friends believing that DPA will ever be our bargaining agent? BWAAAHAAHAHAHAHA!!

Let me guess, you still have, "vote for Ron Paul" signs outside your place in Florida too?

GJ

MD88Driver

Thanks Alfo. Would any of those divestiture "slots" be for 320s? Anyway, thanks for the input. Good to see you back and posting relevant info.

finis72

Scoop, I agree with most everything you posted but I have a few questions: Do you think DALPA caused the stagnation ? Do you think the fact that we had 2000 or so pilots leave because of loss of pension/ bankruptcy and their replacements then hit age 65 stagnation and a flat economy contributed to this stagnation ? How about the merger and the synergies with subsequent loss of flying ? I would add that I think the whole seniority list has stagnated the last five years but as always the junior dudes get hit the hardest.

kiteflyer

Great idea!

How about adding an inflation index to the end of the agreement as well. ie: inflation is raging at some %--we get "cost of living" increases.

My opinion here -- This all sounds great, but everyone has to realize that anything we write down in a pwa costs something, some negotiating "capital" is spent for every damn line in that book.

Howgozit

We will have 12 737-900 by the end of December 2013 and 16 more next year.

daldude

That is correct and is supported by the August Crew resources news letter. I understand the economics of the manning. My only real issue is that is not what was represented to us by the union and company during contract negotiations.

I would argue that a statement more like this should have been issued.

"This is a very exciting time at Delta and with the addition of the 737-900's and potential addition of 88 717's. Please keep in mind while voting for this contract that with the system wide surplus of pilots, the draw down of the 757/DC9 fleets and only 530 retirements over the next half decade these additional aircraft are not indicative of future hiring. Please read the TA and ask questions"

We would not be having most of these discussions had they issued a more realistic and truthful statement. I'm sure someone will say they did not promise to hire. I agree with that, but you have to agree they led us to believe they would have to hire to man the 717. Ultimately that is the issue that bothers most pilots. We know the first 145 crews or so are coming from surplus pilots, plus whatever crews are coming from the 9. The question is how many total crews on 717 and how many can we fund from additional displacements.

daldude

Originally Posted by Scoop
ALFA,

I voted yes on the last contract but it is not all peaches and cream here at DAL. Yes we had a 41% advantage in pay rates, and yet CAL 2005 hires are making more than late 90 hires at DAL because 2005 hires at CAL can hold 757 CAPT. Ditto for Hawaiian with many post 2000 hires holding CAPT. Post 2000 SWA Pilots are making more than DAL Pilots hired 10 years earlier.

Pay rates are only half of the equation - progression is the other half. We may be doing good (relative to BK rates) in pay, but we are a big fat "Fail" when it comes to progression. Hopefully it will get better soon but for many guys it may already be too late.

I believe DAL is in a very good position in the long term but the bottom half of the list have been stagnating for well over 10 years.

Scoop



Of course scoop does not believe DALPA caused the stagnation. That is a product of many events. But the rosy picture that DALPA painted concerning this contract does not appear to be coming to fruition as of today at least, in regards to manning the 717, the amount of retirements or the implied intent that Delta would actually replace retired pilots with new hires.

I readily admit. I thought based on what I was told DALPA that we would need to hire pilots to staff the 717 and that with the early retirement program we would see some progression and hiring. My bad.

I will also admit that stagnating as a 777 capt would probably not bother most of us to much. Or actually any capt position for that matter.

Yes the JR guys are ****ed because they have been junior for 13-15 years and are still another decade away from cracking 6000 on the seniority list. No ones fault just reality that makes for interesting conversation and good sports *****ing.

This is what my Capt told me yesterday. "You may not realize it but being a Capt for an additional 5 years has really helped me financially, I know that it has not been good for you but the airlines is all about timing". Very accurate statement.

Purple Drank

DALPA's willingness to cede massive efficiencies outside of bankruptcy are completely self-induced, and compound the other difficulties you mentioned.

"Our" "union" should be working its tail off to prevent/reduce stagnation; it should not be one of the factors making stagnation worse.