Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-23-2013, 07:52 PM
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It's funny to watch some guys do anything and everything the company asks. I saw something emphasizing more hand flying a few months ago. What do I see from the next LCA I fly with? Hand flying more than any guy in an 88, ever. Yeah, that makes everything go oh so much more smoothly on approach 20+ miles out from ATL. Save fuel? Same guy, holding off flaps 28 until the very last legal point. This guy didn't trust me to shut down the remaining engine as we came to a stop at the gate--every flight he had his hand on the fuel lever to shut it down in case I took an extra .5 seconds to get to it. If the company said it helps to make the people in the back to feel more welcome if you do your pre-push PA from the aft lav of the 88 with the FA's handset there are those who wouldn't question a thing, and just execute.
06-23-2013, 08:00 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
It's funny to watch some guys do anything and everything the company asks. I saw something emphasizing more hand flying a few months ago. What do I see from the next LCA I fly with? Hand flying more than any guy in an 88, ever. Yeah, that makes everything go oh so much more smoothly on approach 20+ miles out from ATL. Save fuel? Same guy, holding off flaps 28 until the very last legal point. This guy didn't trust me to shut down the remaining engine as we came to a stop at the gate--every flight he had his hand on the fuel lever to shut it down in case I took an extra .5 seconds to get to it. If the company said it helps to make the people in the back to feel more welcome if you do your pre-push PA from the aft lav of the 88 with the FA's handset there are those who wouldn't question a thing, and just execute.
I always hold to the philosophy of maintaining maximum proficiency possible in all levels of automation and flying the airplane as safely and efficiently as I can.
Most of the other stuff (like the memo'd fad of the week) falls easily into place without really paying much attention to it when you prioritize it like that. In holding to maintaining maximum proficiency, I hand fly on the line a lot, and that includes most of my visual approaches being without any automation on. Having an excellent grasp of hand flying the aircraft, particularly raw data, makes trips to the sim a dull nonevent.
Last edited by 80ktsClamp; 06-23-2013 at 08:13 PM.
06-23-2013, 08:09 PM
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Here's the thing about VNAV, it does some stuff really good. I love it for climb, cruise and multiple restriction stuff. But there are times VS and IAS do a better job depending on what it is you're after and I always like to keep the FMS updated as a backup.
On the occasion I do run across a VNAV is the only way, I politely explain I like to be bi-lingual with the airplane since putting a system that puts the VNAV on MEL is not (and never will/should be) prohibited. Besides, once you fly with the VNAV on MEL you see how much smoother a descent is without it. Of course they're argument is you're losing your protections by not using VNAV, but that's nonsense, I am the protection... it's called airmanship.
BTW, one reason "VNAV is the only way" technique falls on deaf ears with me goes back to having a dual FMS MEL on ATL->BWI. Not even sort of working, the things were done and they didn't give us any leeway on the multiple VOR arrival into BWI. Second, when a LCA wanted to show me the nuances of VNAV flying but the autothrottles failed to engage on takeoff and never did come up. It was kind of funny.
On the occasion I do run across a VNAV is the only way, I politely explain I like to be bi-lingual with the airplane since putting a system that puts the VNAV on MEL is not (and never will/should be) prohibited. Besides, once you fly with the VNAV on MEL you see how much smoother a descent is without it. Of course they're argument is you're losing your protections by not using VNAV, but that's nonsense, I am the protection... it's called airmanship.
BTW, one reason "VNAV is the only way" technique falls on deaf ears with me goes back to having a dual FMS MEL on ATL->BWI. Not even sort of working, the things were done and they didn't give us any leeway on the multiple VOR arrival into BWI. Second, when a LCA wanted to show me the nuances of VNAV flying but the autothrottles failed to engage on takeoff and never did come up. It was kind of funny.
06-23-2013, 08:19 PM
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There are definitely some kool-aid drinkers out there that hold too tight to whatever the latest fad is...
I always hold to the philosophy of maintaining maximum proficiency possible in all levels of automation and flying the airplane as safely and efficiently as I can.
Most of the other stuff (like the memo'd fad of the week) falls easily into place without really paying much attention to it when you prioritize it like that. In holding to maintaining maximum proficiency, I hand fly on the line a lot, and that includes most of my visual approaches being without any automation on. Having an excellent grasp of hand flying the aircraft, particularly raw data, makes trips to the sim a dull nonevent.
I always hold to the philosophy of maintaining maximum proficiency possible in all levels of automation and flying the airplane as safely and efficiently as I can.
Most of the other stuff (like the memo'd fad of the week) falls easily into place without really paying much attention to it when you prioritize it like that. In holding to maintaining maximum proficiency, I hand fly on the line a lot, and that includes most of my visual approaches being without any automation on. Having an excellent grasp of hand flying the aircraft, particularly raw data, makes trips to the sim a dull nonevent.
It really makes the recovery from the recovery not a big deal.
06-23-2013, 08:22 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Permanently scarred
Posts: 1,707
You're flying the brick or the donut and the course, so sure, it's kinda like flying an ILS... but flying a raw data ILS is easy. Shouldn't be a problem.
And note that you stated it is your perception, and it is completely flawed. Why would it be heavily debriefed? Did you violate a policy or procedure by doing so? Did you go outside of tolerances? If you didn't, and I've done it plenty of times as need be, it will be nothing less than a top grade out.
And note that you stated it is your perception, and it is completely flawed. Why would it be heavily debriefed? Did you violate a policy or procedure by doing so? Did you go outside of tolerances? If you didn't, and I've done it plenty of times as need be, it will be nothing less than a top grade out.
06-23-2013, 08:28 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
"Nicely flown airplane."
That's a heck of a debrief isn't it?
06-23-2013, 08:47 PM
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The FOM says "Automation is provided to enhance safety, maximize efficiency, reduce pilot workload, and improve operational capabilities. Pilots should use the available automation at the level most appropriate to achieve these objectives." I don't see any MD LCA I've ever flown with pointing to that and saying, yeah, the appropriate amount there was none with everything functioning correctly. I'd say my experience on this matter is just different than yours, but I don't have any experience with Delta on this matter--the FDs have always been on for my flights. Thus, my viewpoint is skewed to the point I can barely conceive it. I mean, I've seen captains critiqued for not handing the plane over to me to work on something that had to be looked up in the QRH which took 40 seconds.."Well, it went fine, but you should consider...blah blah blah." Same goes for the VNAV thing..."You should consider using VNAV because blah, blah, blah." No, he wasn't rebuked, but it was a comment about how he chose to fly the plane and so to me it was a "critique."
06-23-2013, 08:54 PM
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I think the mandatory "VNAV ONLY" technique is an 88 community thing.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 06-23-2013 at 09:06 PM.
06-23-2013, 09:04 PM
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The FOM says "Automation is provided to enhance safety, maximize efficiency, reduce pilot workload, and improve operational capabilities. Pilots should use the available automation at the level most appropriate to achieve these objectives." I don't see any MD LCA I've ever flown with pointing to that and saying, yeah, the appropriate amount there was none with everything functioning correctly. I'd say my experience on this matter is just different than yours, but I don't have any experience with Delta on this matter--the FDs have always been on for my flights. Thus, my viewpoint is skewed to the point I can barely conceive it. I mean, I've seen captains critiqued for not handing the plane over to me to work on something that had to be looked up in the QRH which took 40 seconds.."Well, it went fine, but you should consider...blah blah blah." Same goes for the VNAV thing..."You should consider using VNAV because blah, blah, blah." No, he wasn't rebuked, but it was a comment about how he chose to fly the plane and so to me it was a "critique."
Saying Armed will get you a debrief for not saying what's on the checklist. The checklist clearly says ARM. Not armed. Got it?
That's why I now say RET & DISARMED. Not retracted and disarmed. RET as in rhymes with BET.
Feel free to use it.
06-23-2013, 09:05 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
That's happened when your captain's gotten a line check and you're flying the next leg? If you say so, but I find it hard to believe. If I'm flying a visual and don't have GS capture 3 miles out the captain is going to say something. Maybe I should just turn the FD off at that point, but I don't want to have a medical emergency on my hands when he has a heart attack on short final.
The FOM says "Automation is provided to enhance safety, maximize efficiency, reduce pilot workload, and improve operational capabilities. Pilots should use the available automation at the level most appropriate to achieve these objectives." I don't see any MD LCA I've ever flown with pointing to that and saying, yeah, the appropriate amount there was none with everything functioning correctly. I'd say my experience on this matter is just different than yours, but I don't have any experience with Delta on this matter--the FDs have always been on for my flights. Thus, my viewpoint is skewed to the point I can barely conceive it. I mean, I've seen captains critiqued for not handing the plane over to me to work on something that had to be looked up in the QRH which took 40 seconds.."Well, it went fine, but you should consider...blah blah blah." Same goes for the VNAV thing..."You should consider using VNAV because blah, blah, blah." No, he wasn't rebuked, but it was a comment about how he chose to fly the plane and so to me it was a "critique."
The FOM says "Automation is provided to enhance safety, maximize efficiency, reduce pilot workload, and improve operational capabilities. Pilots should use the available automation at the level most appropriate to achieve these objectives." I don't see any MD LCA I've ever flown with pointing to that and saying, yeah, the appropriate amount there was none with everything functioning correctly. I'd say my experience on this matter is just different than yours, but I don't have any experience with Delta on this matter--the FDs have always been on for my flights. Thus, my viewpoint is skewed to the point I can barely conceive it. I mean, I've seen captains critiqued for not handing the plane over to me to work on something that had to be looked up in the QRH which took 40 seconds.."Well, it went fine, but you should consider...blah blah blah." Same goes for the VNAV thing..."You should consider using VNAV because blah, blah, blah." No, he wasn't rebuked, but it was a comment about how he chose to fly the plane and so to me it was a "critique."
A demonstration of raw data flying within tolerances for visual approaches on the A320 is required to pass training (due to issues in the past with people not understanding what thrust mode they were in combined with non-moving thrust levers)... I hand flew the 767 all the time with the FD off, including with the CLCP in the jumpseat. No biggie and utilized as appropriate.
Other fleets are free to apply automation and flight guidance as appropriate.
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