Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-09-2013, 07:40 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,167
Bar,
Great post...as per usual.
Leine,
I understand your point. But here's my problem. I think (key word: "think") DALPA's scope giveaway is designed to meet the "spirit" (but not the "word") of the contractual scope terms. So DALPA took the magnanimous position of saying okay...
Where has the reverse happened? When has Delta honored the "spirit" of the contract as opposed to the written word? Did they do that with the Frontier/Republic scope issue? How about with the interpretation of the number of permitted 70+ seat RJ's?
Seriously.
My impression, based on many years at Delta, is management will hide behind contractual language when it's in their interest, and say "Gee fellas...this is what the contract means to us..." when it's convenient.
This was a (wasted) opportunity to hold managements feet to the fire and, from my perspective, it was squandered (again).
What's the point of having a contract if it's not going to be followed, and what's the point of paying dues to an organization to negotiate and uphold a contract if they are going to (continually) turn the other cheek?
Great post...as per usual.
Leine,
I understand your point. But here's my problem. I think (key word: "think") DALPA's scope giveaway is designed to meet the "spirit" (but not the "word") of the contractual scope terms. So DALPA took the magnanimous position of saying okay...
Where has the reverse happened? When has Delta honored the "spirit" of the contract as opposed to the written word? Did they do that with the Frontier/Republic scope issue? How about with the interpretation of the number of permitted 70+ seat RJ's?
Seriously.
My impression, based on many years at Delta, is management will hide behind contractual language when it's in their interest, and say "Gee fellas...this is what the contract means to us..." when it's convenient.
This was a (wasted) opportunity to hold managements feet to the fire and, from my perspective, it was squandered (again).
What's the point of having a contract if it's not going to be followed, and what's the point of paying dues to an organization to negotiate and uphold a contract if they are going to (continually) turn the other cheek?
I appreciate your skepticism. I felt the same way at first glance. I have spoken face-to-face with reps from 3 different bases and I have confidence that they are aware of what is at stake. As reps they have info that I'm not privy to, and have made their best decision (to grant temp relief) on our behalf. To be honest that's all I have to go on, but for me that's enough. I respect each of these men personally and have no reason to believe I'm being sandbagged.
To top it off, if we don't find some sort of scope amendment by the fall that suits our purpose, things snap back to the way they were. I'm aware that some think that we're giving them a "free" summer, but I really don't think management is willing to foul the swimming pool over something this (relatively) small. Time will tell, but I trust that our reps are taking a calculated risk to allow us to win-win.
I share your concern, but am optimistic that we're looking at a potential improvement going forward.
06-09-2013, 07:41 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
BTW, I do kind of believe the often heard [from DALPA and I have the emails to show it] "well that's what senior pilots wanted" is nothing but a low grade straw man argument. And the best part is when they point to surveys you never see the results of.
I think the DPA should put it's money into surveys that are published.
I think the DPA should put it's money into surveys that are published.
06-09-2013, 07:43 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
06-09-2013, 07:48 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
BTW, I do kind of believe the often heard [from DALPA and I have the emails to show it] "well that's what senior pilots wanted" is nothing but a low grade straw man argument. And the best part is when they point to surveys you never see the results of.
I think the DPA should put it's money into surveys that are published.
I think the DPA should put it's money into surveys that are published.
06-09-2013, 07:56 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,167
LeineLodge,
We are within compliance simply because the 3 year window has not yet ended. While this is true, its like saying a football team that is down by 4 touchdowns with 1 minute left has not lost. True - but they will have "lost" in 1 more minute just as we will be out of compliance when the window is over.
I might also add, that when we are found to be out of compliance the period of being out of compliance will go back three years so we may in fact find out that while we are in compliance today, when we look back we may find out we were not in compliance today.
Look at it this way, if the company builds a time machine and sends Arnold Schwazenegger back in time to renegotiate with DALPA and............... never mind.
On the Pacific stuff I agree that there is potential and it may be a good move. I have been talking to my reps about it and am willing to let it play out for a couple of months.
My only heartburn is that if the company makes no effort whatsoever to comply in the Atlantic what makes us think that will comply with the next deal in the Pacific?
It appears the company negotiates a deal, does whatever it wants anyway, DALPA does not challenge the company but works out a deal. Lather, rinse, repeat. If DALPA keeps backing down and never challenges the company sooner or later, oif not already, DALPA will be taken for granted.
My 2 cents
Scoop
We are within compliance simply because the 3 year window has not yet ended. While this is true, its like saying a football team that is down by 4 touchdowns with 1 minute left has not lost. True - but they will have "lost" in 1 more minute just as we will be out of compliance when the window is over.
I might also add, that when we are found to be out of compliance the period of being out of compliance will go back three years so we may in fact find out that while we are in compliance today, when we look back we may find out we were not in compliance today.
Look at it this way, if the company builds a time machine and sends Arnold Schwazenegger back in time to renegotiate with DALPA and............... never mind.
On the Pacific stuff I agree that there is potential and it may be a good move. I have been talking to my reps about it and am willing to let it play out for a couple of months.
My only heartburn is that if the company makes no effort whatsoever to comply in the Atlantic what makes us think that will comply with the next deal in the Pacific?
It appears the company negotiates a deal, does whatever it wants anyway, DALPA does not challenge the company but works out a deal. Lather, rinse, repeat. If DALPA keeps backing down and never challenges the company sooner or later, oif not already, DALPA will be taken for granted.
My 2 cents
Scoop
We will have to wait and see. From what I've been able to ascertain, the main reason the company is below the target is because the Euros have been slow/unwilling to pull down capacity - a large reason they haven't been posting the profits we have.
If AF pulls down like they should, we may be back in compliance without having to grow the Atlantic massively. Do I like it? Not really. But it is a way the company can MAINTAIN compliance.
Please don't get me wrong. I want Delta pilots to maintain/grow our block hours more than the next guy. It just ticks me off when the DPA spouts nonsense in an effort to sway the uninformed.
Things do not always go our way. Liking the way things are, and dealing with the way things are, are apparently two different things...
06-09-2013, 07:57 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
I don't have too much of a problem with them taking some of the NRT slots and using them at HND. However, I don't think we should count the overflights, those should be gravy. Think of the lost hub in Frankfort, for example. Point to point from the US comes and goes as markets advance and decline. But, if you have a hub you can use it when markets decline.
Simply stated, don't you wish we had someplace in Europe to funnel people into and then have us fly them onward.......like we do in NRT now? Don't give up NRT just because you think point to point from the US is forever.
Signed,
An Old Asia Hand
Simply stated, don't you wish we had someplace in Europe to funnel people into and then have us fly them onward.......like we do in NRT now? Don't give up NRT just because you think point to point from the US is forever.
Signed,
An Old Asia Hand
If DALPA can come up with an acceptable alternative to this scenario, and put it in solid contractual language with no out, loopholes, or extended compliance timelines, then I guess I could take a look at it. But our history shows that when the company wants something, whether it's really good for the company or just the shareholders, DALPA gives it right up.
I guess what I'm saying is that if we are going to pursue a strategy of global dominance with Delta metal and pilots at the controls, then show me the plan, put it in writing and make it happen. Otherwise, no thanks.
06-09-2013, 08:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,167
Fairly decent assessment. The problem I have is that the company came forth and said "we're going to violate your contract this summer...can we please keep our codeshare?" DALPA's response? "Ok. We'll negotiate something later." Influencing the outcome? Yes... but not after the most critical season of the year being waived on scope compliance. We'd better see some spectacular results on these negotiations.
Can you imagine how the company would react if DALPA did something similar to the company? I don't think it would be as lovey dovey.
Can you imagine how the company would react if DALPA did something similar to the company? I don't think it would be as lovey dovey.
06-10-2013, 02:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Actually.....I wouldn't. I'd get my car fixed and move on with my life. I've better things to do then fester and harp over what could've been. The problem with your analogy is that the system isn't broken. Everything we have is ours because as a group we approved it. Over 60% of our pilot group voted YES for this latest TA. And now it's our contract. Done. Over. We can't change it.
So while I enjoy and encourage sharing thoughts, I don't enjoy reading the same gripes, moans, and complaints about what is done. Choosing to not fly ALV+15 is now gone. The RJ scope has been changed. Over. We can either unite and decide how we want to fix it, or continue to mindlessly whine over something that 62% of our pilot group thought wasn't a bad deal.
If people on this board want to chew someone's ear off about scope, head over to the Alaska TA thread. Their NC decided to protect $$$ & their pilots in a merger scenario instead of establishing scope protection. Nothing stops Skypest, RAH, etc from flying 100 seat RJs as Alaska. NOTHING. And that's what THEIR NC chose.
FTB, I quoted you but this post isn't directed at only you.
Flame away. I'm used to it by now.
So while I enjoy and encourage sharing thoughts, I don't enjoy reading the same gripes, moans, and complaints about what is done. Choosing to not fly ALV+15 is now gone. The RJ scope has been changed. Over. We can either unite and decide how we want to fix it, or continue to mindlessly whine over something that 62% of our pilot group thought wasn't a bad deal.
If people on this board want to chew someone's ear off about scope, head over to the Alaska TA thread. Their NC decided to protect $$$ & their pilots in a merger scenario instead of establishing scope protection. Nothing stops Skypest, RAH, etc from flying 100 seat RJs as Alaska. NOTHING. And that's what THEIR NC chose.
FTB, I quoted you but this post isn't directed at only you.
Flame away. I'm used to it by now.
Johnson, don't you see may name?
06-10-2013, 03:44 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
I'm sorry you have problems moving on or dealing with reality. I choose to deal in reality.
Someone is fearmongering again. are we in section 6?
NRT is dying and HND is growing. Our future lies in overflying NRT and accessing HND. If we force the company to maintain the 316 slots they could simply drop the codeshare and we LOSE the protection entirely. If we grant the waiver(which is allowed) we are provided the opportunity to strengthen our current Asia protections, rather then lose them all together.
Someone is fearmongering again. are we in section 6?
NRT is dying and HND is growing. Our future lies in overflying NRT and accessing HND. If we force the company to maintain the 316 slots they could simply drop the codeshare and we LOSE the protection entirely. If we grant the waiver(which is allowed) we are provided the opportunity to strengthen our current Asia protections, rather then lose them all together.
It you look at what we have done with AMS and CDG and our previous European point to point it speaks in favor of a long future for NRT connections even if Japan O&D shifts towards HND. While the Japanese want to get rid of 5th freedom, they can't for the time being and can only bypass by de-leveraging NRT through HND. ALPA is smart to evaluate and plan, but it is not some do or die emergency action item as some are suggesting.
Any claim that NRT is dead or on life support is fear mongering. DAL would no sooner pull the plug on NRT than they would LHR. If they are changing the NRT frequencies its because yield management is driving it. It can drive it back the other direction as well. Time will tell.
With the percentage of revenue that comes from our Asia operations I would expect the company to look at every opportunity to protect and build that revenue. The suggestion that they would kill NRT if we don't give them a (permanent?) exemption and that the MEC is protecting the pilots from the company drawing down NRT is preposterous.
Look at the official MEC response vs. who is yelling fire. I'm surprised we haven't heard from the usual suspects yet that the NRT slots are the reason we are not hiring. Why as are they trying to de-leverage ALPA's position?
Fly the airplane - cancel the warning - read the checklist - do not hurry
Last edited by Fly4hire; 06-10-2013 at 04:19 AM.
06-10-2013, 04:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Let's not forget the role of the weak Yen in the NRT equation. Revenue from that operation, in dollar terms, can vary greatly. Right now, the Japanese are doing everything they can to weaken their currency. In three years, five years, ten years... who knows?
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