Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-09-2013, 07:02 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
What are their special assessments? Independents that is.
Its considered income and if you want it changed write a resolution. It would take care of the refund you get every year.
BS. Go to the Treasurers Page its on the left side
And we use none of that right? No publishing,legal, safety etc?
See what the market did these last few years? See what consolidation took place and who is using the MCF? Not DALPA? Why in part 24J
No idea about that one.
You are labor in a labor union. Think we should be affiliated with the RNC? Notice ALPA is pilot partisan. Issues not political parties. We donate 30% to Republicans fwiw.
Huh? only plan(s) DALPA negotiates are the ones covered in the PWA
Opine. See APA's, APA's? How about the contracts at B6 and SKW. Oh yeah they don't have em
That is not Nationals playground. Its always done at the local council level(mec)
Great idea. Publish surveys which say exactly what pilots want so the company can find your weak spots in the next round which worst case is three years away. Brilliant. Oh wait, DPA is doing that Doh!
Hear of a resolution or input to your Reps. Representational democracy and all. How do the independents do it? Representational democracy...
True. They vote for Reps who vote. You could actually show up to a LEC meeting with 40 of your DPA buddies and get a resolution passed. Better yet recall the reps and then put your guys in. They will change it.
Opine.
Independents get sued too.
Critical mass and representing all pilots works better because all pilot groups can then not undercut each other.
Its expensive. No doubt about it. Union hotel, every two years, and its a long term contract. There are 300 or so BOD members representing 53,000 pilots. That works out to $14.15 per member per year.
Ever wonder if the Unit 1 or 2 CBA's prohibit it. I have. Ever seen a LM2?
ALPA has not been through CH11 and employees are union. Want to break a union? How does that look for street cred for ya?
How long ago was he ALPA President? Isnt there a two year non-compete at DALPA?
You saying that DPA will be alcohol free? This one baffles me. Go to the hospitality suite have a beer. I have.
Huh? Opine
Really? 35% We hire over 50% from DCI. Its that whole unity of the profession thing that many get at DALPA I guess. I had no issue with this.
Answered already. Not liking language is different than non-compliance
Who votes for it? Pinnacle pilots? Oh yeah that's right us.
Think its 87 which is the avg pilot credit per month per year.
No idea.
Think they explained this one in a publication to us. Plus up, and didn't his salary go down, but the reimbursements for business go up?
Are they? Can DPA show that math
Wrong on all accounts, but getting APA and SWAPA to ALPA would help ALPA members. After all didn't SWAPA prosper with PFT and no pensions. Think ALPA would have promoted that?
That's right. Its been flowers and sunny skies the last 12 years. Nothing has happened in our country to our pilots to need to spend any of it. ALPA National has not cut staff by 25% either
They get what the Policy Manual allows. Its in black and white for all to see.
Yep we did not hire. Sucks, but how do you force a company to hire when you are overstaffed and the pilot group overwhelmingly approved work rule efficiencies? Ever think this is what the pilots said to do in the survey? Made me wonder too.
They did and sent it to us for a vote. We voted it in. A stable company is exactly why I'd vote in a new union.
Its considered income and if you want it changed write a resolution. It would take care of the refund you get every year.
BS. Go to the Treasurers Page its on the left side
And we use none of that right? No publishing,legal, safety etc?
See what the market did these last few years? See what consolidation took place and who is using the MCF? Not DALPA? Why in part 24J
No idea about that one.
You are labor in a labor union. Think we should be affiliated with the RNC? Notice ALPA is pilot partisan. Issues not political parties. We donate 30% to Republicans fwiw.
Huh? only plan(s) DALPA negotiates are the ones covered in the PWA
Opine. See APA's, APA's? How about the contracts at B6 and SKW. Oh yeah they don't have em
That is not Nationals playground. Its always done at the local council level(mec)
Great idea. Publish surveys which say exactly what pilots want so the company can find your weak spots in the next round which worst case is three years away. Brilliant. Oh wait, DPA is doing that Doh!
Hear of a resolution or input to your Reps. Representational democracy and all. How do the independents do it? Representational democracy...
True. They vote for Reps who vote. You could actually show up to a LEC meeting with 40 of your DPA buddies and get a resolution passed. Better yet recall the reps and then put your guys in. They will change it.
Opine.
Independents get sued too.
Critical mass and representing all pilots works better because all pilot groups can then not undercut each other.
Its expensive. No doubt about it. Union hotel, every two years, and its a long term contract. There are 300 or so BOD members representing 53,000 pilots. That works out to $14.15 per member per year.
Ever wonder if the Unit 1 or 2 CBA's prohibit it. I have. Ever seen a LM2?
ALPA has not been through CH11 and employees are union. Want to break a union? How does that look for street cred for ya?
How long ago was he ALPA President? Isnt there a two year non-compete at DALPA?
You saying that DPA will be alcohol free? This one baffles me. Go to the hospitality suite have a beer. I have.
Huh? Opine
Really? 35% We hire over 50% from DCI. Its that whole unity of the profession thing that many get at DALPA I guess. I had no issue with this.
Answered already. Not liking language is different than non-compliance
Who votes for it? Pinnacle pilots? Oh yeah that's right us.
Think its 87 which is the avg pilot credit per month per year.
No idea.
Think they explained this one in a publication to us. Plus up, and didn't his salary go down, but the reimbursements for business go up?
Are they? Can DPA show that math
Wrong on all accounts, but getting APA and SWAPA to ALPA would help ALPA members. After all didn't SWAPA prosper with PFT and no pensions. Think ALPA would have promoted that?
That's right. Its been flowers and sunny skies the last 12 years. Nothing has happened in our country to our pilots to need to spend any of it. ALPA National has not cut staff by 25% either
They get what the Policy Manual allows. Its in black and white for all to see.
Yep we did not hire. Sucks, but how do you force a company to hire when you are overstaffed and the pilot group overwhelmingly approved work rule efficiencies? Ever think this is what the pilots said to do in the survey? Made me wonder too.
They did and sent it to us for a vote. We voted it in. A stable company is exactly why I'd vote in a new union.
06-09-2013, 07:04 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Denny,
Here is ALPA's Counsel, Mr. Bill Roberts describing "Delta Flying" in his deposition:Mr. Robert's is pretty clear then that he believes flying for Delta is Delta flying and is only permitted under the Delta pilot working agreement. There is no discussion of Comair (in this case) being able to subcontract within Delta's contract, as ALPA would not authorize ASA or Comair to do so back then.
Now, despite claims to the contrary, Pinnacle has an agreement which restricts Delta flying. Pinnacle's agreement literally supercedes ours by duration.
Ironically, my guess is Wychor studied and learned from JC Lawson, Bob Arnold and the early (pre litigation) RJDC playbook and used his position to actually pull off what JC Lawson and Bob Arnold were trying to accomplish; scope which bound Delta Air Lines. Be interesting to hear Duane Woerth's opinion on the change.
Here is ALPA's Counsel, Mr. Bill Roberts describing "Delta Flying" in his deposition:Mr. Robert's is pretty clear then that he believes flying for Delta is Delta flying and is only permitted under the Delta pilot working agreement. There is no discussion of Comair (in this case) being able to subcontract within Delta's contract, as ALPA would not authorize ASA or Comair to do so back then.
Now, despite claims to the contrary, Pinnacle has an agreement which restricts Delta flying. Pinnacle's agreement literally supercedes ours by duration.
Ironically, my guess is Wychor studied and learned from JC Lawson, Bob Arnold and the early (pre litigation) RJDC playbook and used his position to actually pull off what JC Lawson and Bob Arnold were trying to accomplish; scope which bound Delta Air Lines. Be interesting to hear Duane Woerth's opinion on the change.
My opinion is that the agreement does not restrict our flying because we have already outsourced more flying than this agreement covers. It seems to me all this agreement is doing is assuring Pinnacle of a certain percentage of flying that was already outsourced.
I agree it is scope that Delta Management is bound by but it is scoping flying we, the Delta Pilots, have allowed to be outsourced. Yes the agreement is longer than our current PWA. So what. Everything is negotiable in the next section 6. Maybe some kind of sunset can be negotiated then..... I don't know, just spitballin' there..
This discussion has veered tangentially from where it should be. All I asked in the beginning was what section of our contract was changed without being negotiated via DALPA? No one can answer that. The other question was what section/contract language has been violated? No one can answer that either.
All the other stuff is good discussion and I agree that it could bite us later but where is the clear cut change and violation?
Denny
06-09-2013, 07:09 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Read this post, it answers your question, again.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ml#post1425559
Number 132313 on this forum
06-09-2013, 07:22 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
30. ALPA’s first goal is to grow membership and associated dues income. Representing current members is secondary.
Wrong on all accounts, but getting APA and SWAPA to ALPA would help ALPA members. After all didn't SWAPA prosper with PFT and no pensions. Think ALPA would have promoted that?
Wrong on all accounts, but getting APA and SWAPA to ALPA would help ALPA members. After all didn't SWAPA prosper with PFT and no pensions. Think ALPA would have promoted that?
I don't think ALPA would have a single problem with PFT if they could win SWA. Those guys would be a freaking goldmine. In fact, in if I was representing an ALPA pilot group merging with SWA, I'd trip over myself to get SWA to jo... oh wait...
06-09-2013, 07:29 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Considering politics in that region, it seems impossible to forecast what alliances with Korean or Chinese "partners" will stand the test of time. It seems premature to dismantle a hub like NRT. If we just enforced our contract, for a change, it seems that the company might have to downgauge as appropriate, AND continue the evolutionary path towards direct Asia flights, possibly with smaller, longer-range aircraft, i.e. some 737-900 E's and A321's instead of 757 intra-theater, less 747 feed and more A330's to NRT, a more A330-200's overflights, instead of 777's and 747's. Who knows what the company might do if left to work theough the various constraints? We don't, because we're already suggesting there is an easy button they can just push.
DPA, for a change, is actually right, even though they typically fumbled the execution, and their numbers on daily departures are off by a factor of 30.
So we have an apathetic group in the middle, overeager implementers and premature enablers on one side, and the grotesquely lobotomied DPA on the other.
What could possibly go wrong?
DPA, for a change, is actually right, even though they typically fumbled the execution, and their numbers on daily departures are off by a factor of 30.
So we have an apathetic group in the middle, overeager implementers and premature enablers on one side, and the grotesquely lobotomied DPA on the other.
What could possibly go wrong?
06-09-2013, 07:29 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Which version of Mr. Roberts do you agree with, then (as outlined in his deposition), or now (that "Delta Flying" does not include what we have permitted) ?
Read this post, it answers your question, again.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ml#post1425559
Number 132313 on this forum
Read this post, it answers your question, again.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ml#post1425559
Number 132313 on this forum
That's how dense I am and why I try to avoid getting into these discussions. Youse guys are much smarter than I am. No sarcasm, just truth. I know my limitations and try to abide by them.
Denny
06-09-2013, 07:33 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
33. Jobs promised in last contract. No hiring for all of 2012 or 2013. 757s to be parked and 737s will replace..…pay cut.
Yep we did not hire. Sucks, but how do you force a company to hire when you are overstaffed and the pilot group overwhelmingly approved work rule efficiencies? Ever think this is what the pilots said to do in the survey? Made me wonder too.
Yep we did not hire. Sucks, but how do you force a company to hire when you are overstaffed and the pilot group overwhelmingly approved work rule efficiencies? Ever think this is what the pilots said to do in the survey? Made me wonder too.
If, the almighty "senior pilot" straw men said they don't need so many vacations why won't you allow me to sell them back and pick up flying? Whose job is it to throw cold water on that for the sake of the pilot group? Maybe the pilot group shouldn't be allowed to vote on things that improve productivity because maybe those kinds of things should never make it to a vote?
The one thing that should be remembered about may be hiring in 2012 if we voted in the TA, it came out after the TA was dropped in our laps. It was a sales job. And it worked. We had people who were in favor of the TA pointing to that as another reason to vote for it while those who were against the TA said "sales job." On that account, who turned out to be right? I'm guessing the people who said it was b.s. and we wouldn't hire.
06-09-2013, 07:35 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Bar I admit it, I'm dense. I've read that post time and again and no where can I see where it says section 1 paragraph __ was violated or where it says Section __ Paragraph __ was changed because of the Pinnacle Agreement.
That's how dense I am and why I try to avoid getting into these discussions. Youse guys are much smarter than I am. No sarcasm, just truth. I know my limitations and try to abide by them.
Denny
That's how dense I am and why I try to avoid getting into these discussions. Youse guys are much smarter than I am. No sarcasm, just truth. I know my limitations and try to abide by them.
Denny
Further, we have maintained reciprocal agreements which give Delta pilots favored hiring opportunities as a job protection device (bilateral flow concept). Pinnacle did not honor this reciprocal agreement.
06-09-2013, 07:36 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
I don't have too much of a problem with them taking some of the NRT slots and using them at HND. However, I don't think we should count the overflights, those should be gravy. Think of the lost hub in Frankfort, for example. Point to point from the US comes and goes as markets advance and decline. But, if you have a hub you can use it when markets decline.
Simply stated, don't you wish we had someplace in Europe to funnel people into and then have us fly them onward.......like we do in NRT now? Don't give up NRT just because you think point to point from the US is forever.
Signed,
An Old Asia Hand
Simply stated, don't you wish we had someplace in Europe to funnel people into and then have us fly them onward.......like we do in NRT now? Don't give up NRT just because you think point to point from the US is forever.
Signed,
An Old Asia Hand
This is assuming NRT remains viable, of course. Not a given...
06-09-2013, 07:38 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
BTW, I do kind of believe the often heard [from DALPA and I have the emails to show it] "well that's what senior pilots wanted" is nothing but a low grade straw man argument. And the best part is when they point to surveys you never see the results of.
I think the DPA should put it's money into surveys that are published.
I think the DPA should put it's money into surveys that are published.
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