Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-09-2013, 04:56 PM
Da Hudge
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06-09-2013, 05:06 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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It is a huge difference. We obviously do not control management.
ALPA, OUR UNION, authorizes pilot bargaining. ALPA is an exclusive agent. Exclusive means ONE. ALPA speaks for Pinnacle just as it speaks for Delta (or any other represented pilot group).
In the past ALPA would not empower an express pilot group to sit down at the table with another airline's management and negotiate a contract which controls that airline's flying.
The Delta pilots PERMIT some flying to be done off the Delta list. This flying remains Delta flying.
ALPA is trying to create a precedent by which PERMITTED FLYING can be traded to another pilot group. ALPA is doing this by trying to redefine Delta flying to just that flying which we perform. ALPA has mostly sold our MEC on the idea that flying we permit to be performed elsewhere is no longer Delta flying. Unfortunately, our MEC keeps went to ALPA National Attorneys for legal opinions on the behavior of ALPA National. Of course these attorneys created legal reasoning which justified the actions of the name at the upper left corner of their paychecks (metaphorically speaking).
ALPA's sale of our permitted flying was bought with concessions. Other pilots are now being pushed into concessions to compete.
The reason for ALPA's change is to facilitate the sale of one member's job to benefit another member. This is the opposite of unity. It is the opposite of what a union should do.
So you may ask, "Why should I care?"
The reason you should care is because once a separate, lower, standard is established, how do we negotiate better (pick an issue - rest / crew meals / bidding / time off / reserve rules / safety ) when ALPA has accepted the lower standard on the Delta property with a group of pilots performing Delta flying?
When Dave Behncke founded our union the cornerstone of his approach was "when one member has a problem, we all have a problem." Unsafe scheduling was unsafe scheduling no matter where it occurred. He fought for a single, improved, standard for our profession.
ALPA, OUR UNION, authorizes pilot bargaining. ALPA is an exclusive agent. Exclusive means ONE. ALPA speaks for Pinnacle just as it speaks for Delta (or any other represented pilot group).
In the past ALPA would not empower an express pilot group to sit down at the table with another airline's management and negotiate a contract which controls that airline's flying.
The Delta pilots PERMIT some flying to be done off the Delta list. This flying remains Delta flying.
ALPA is trying to create a precedent by which PERMITTED FLYING can be traded to another pilot group. ALPA is doing this by trying to redefine Delta flying to just that flying which we perform. ALPA has mostly sold our MEC on the idea that flying we permit to be performed elsewhere is no longer Delta flying. Unfortunately, our MEC keeps went to ALPA National Attorneys for legal opinions on the behavior of ALPA National. Of course these attorneys created legal reasoning which justified the actions of the name at the upper left corner of their paychecks (metaphorically speaking).
ALPA's sale of our permitted flying was bought with concessions. Other pilots are now being pushed into concessions to compete.
The reason for ALPA's change is to facilitate the sale of one member's job to benefit another member. This is the opposite of unity. It is the opposite of what a union should do.
So you may ask, "Why should I care?"
The reason you should care is because once a separate, lower, standard is established, how do we negotiate better (pick an issue - rest / crew meals / bidding / time off / reserve rules / safety ) when ALPA has accepted the lower standard on the Delta property with a group of pilots performing Delta flying?
When Dave Behncke founded our union the cornerstone of his approach was "when one member has a problem, we all have a problem." Unsafe scheduling was unsafe scheduling no matter where it occurred. He fought for a single, improved, standard for our profession.
06-09-2013, 05:14 PM
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....and that was quite awhile ago!I am by no means endorsing what happened nor am I happy about it. I just don't see what recourse we have...
Denny
06-09-2013, 05:14 PM
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I didn't get to vote on the NRT summer giveaway. Did you? I didn't get anything in return for this massive concession. Did you?
We most certainly can "change it." Kick ALPA out. And after this latest buffoonery...kick them in between the legs. Oh, wait...there's nothing there to harm.
We most certainly can "change it." Kick ALPA out. And after this latest buffoonery...kick them in between the legs. Oh, wait...there's nothing there to harm.
06-09-2013, 05:19 PM
Da Hudge
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06-09-2013, 05:27 PM
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No. My big beef is that ALPA has changed policy to redefine Delta flying as only the flying contained within Delta's scope agreement. Further, our former Chairman took the position that everything in our scope section should not really be considered "scope." (so who knows what is protected under this new definition? How about the AF JV flying we aren't actually able to fix until March 2015?) Thus other airlines are authorized by ALPA to make Deals with Delta management without the knowledge or consent of the Delta pilots for anything THEY deem is not "Delta Flying."
The Pinnacle Bridge agreement is ill considered for a number of other reasons. First, it creates a marketplace where airlines can come in and bid for Delta's permitted flying. Pinnacle bought itself a slice with concessions. Secondly, the Bridge Agreement provisions are ill considered and strategically not aligned with the expressed goals of our union as outlined in the Administrative Manual as adopted by our Board of Directors.
Lets start with instructions, as outlined in our Administrative Manual which reflects the democratic guidance of our union.
Notice that we Delta pilots did just that in our contract
Then the Pinnacle pilots came along and put themselves at the front of the line. It is not what the Delta pilots wanted or else we would have worded our contract like this ... Pinnacle changed our contract by adding to it.
So Pinnacle took our offer of help to ALPA members who have lost their jobs and put their senior Captains first. That's just bad policy.
But more importantly, all this was done so our flying could be sold. Just as it was necessary to get Compass out of our MEC before they could be sold, ALPA wants to divide Delta flying and deal in the part we are not actively flying.
Given that those contracts extend past our amendable date, it acts as a check valve. We now have lost jobs we will probably not get back.
Further, some Pinnacle insiders are already pretty excited about Delta's contract 2015. We are not yet studying our opener, but now that the market is open others are sure talking about theirs.
Lets start with instructions, as outlined in our Administrative Manual which reflects the democratic guidance of our union.
Originally Posted by admin manual
ALPA, Admin Manual, Section 40, Part 5 – Contents of Agreements
PREFERENTIAL HIRING OF ALPA PILOTS
It shall be ALPA's goal to secure contract language in every ALPA agreement which provides for the preferential hiring of ALPA-represented pilots displaced by furlough, bankruptcy, shutdown or strike. In furtherance of this goal, each MEC shall use its best efforts to secure first right of interview for displaced ALPA pilots. Every MEC should act in the manner it deems most effective in achieving this goal.
Additionally, each MEC shall then use its best efforts to secure interview priority for other ALPA pilots.
PREFERENTIAL HIRING OF ALPA PILOTS
It shall be ALPA's goal to secure contract language in every ALPA agreement which provides for the preferential hiring of ALPA-represented pilots displaced by furlough, bankruptcy, shutdown or strike. In furtherance of this goal, each MEC shall use its best efforts to secure first right of interview for displaced ALPA pilots. Every MEC should act in the manner it deems most effective in achieving this goal.
Additionally, each MEC shall then use its best efforts to secure interview priority for other ALPA pilots.
Originally Posted by Delta PWA
The Company will offer preferential interviews for employment to airmen employed by carriers (whose airmen were represented by the Association) at the time those carriers ceased operations, subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots and subject to (the following)
The Company will fill a minimum of 35% of the aggregate of all positions in Delta pilot new-hire classes in each trailing twelve-month period (to the extent airmen are available) with ALPA-represented airmen at Delta Connection Carriers, subject to such airmen meeting the Company’s competitive hiring standards, and subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots. Airmen who flow up pursuant to LOA #9 and LOA #10 count toward satisfaction of such minimum percentage.
The Company will fill a minimum of 35% of the aggregate of all positions in Delta pilot new-hire classes in each trailing twelve-month period (to the extent airmen are available) with ALPA-represented airmen at Delta Connection Carriers, subject to such airmen meeting the Company’s competitive hiring standards, and subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots. Airmen who flow up pursuant to LOA #9 and LOA #10 count toward satisfaction of such minimum percentage.
Originally Posted by Pinnacle Bridge Agreement
: the minimum number of available positions filled in Section 2.e.i. may be satisfied by offering positions to at least two-thirds (2/3) of such positions to Pinnacle
pilots in seniority order under the SSP and one-third (1/3) to any eligible Pinnacle pilot. For example, if there are 30 available positions in a Delta new hire class apart from those filled by LOA #9 and LOA #10, seven (7) positions at a minimum would be filled by pilots under the SSP and three (3) may be filled by Pinnacle pilots selected outside the SSP.
pilots in seniority order under the SSP and one-third (1/3) to any eligible Pinnacle pilot. For example, if there are 30 available positions in a Delta new hire class apart from those filled by LOA #9 and LOA #10, seven (7) positions at a minimum would be filled by pilots under the SSP and three (3) may be filled by Pinnacle pilots selected outside the SSP.
But more importantly, all this was done so our flying could be sold. Just as it was necessary to get Compass out of our MEC before they could be sold, ALPA wants to divide Delta flying and deal in the part we are not actively flying.
Given that those contracts extend past our amendable date, it acts as a check valve. We now have lost jobs we will probably not get back.
Further, some Pinnacle insiders are already pretty excited about Delta's contract 2015. We are not yet studying our opener, but now that the market is open others are sure talking about theirs.
06-09-2013, 05:28 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Bar,
Great post...as per usual.
Leine,
I understand your point. But here's my problem. I think (key word: "think") DALPA's scope giveaway is designed to meet the "spirit" (but not the "word") of the contractual scope terms. So DALPA took the magnanimous position of saying okay...
Where has the reverse happened? When has Delta honored the "spirit" of the contract as opposed to the written word? Did they do that with the Frontier/Republic scope issue? How about with the interpretation of the number of permitted 70+ seat RJ's?
Seriously.
My impression, based on many years at Delta, is management will hide behind contractual language when it's in their interest, and say "Gee fellas...this is what the contract means to us..." when it's convenient.
This was a (wasted) opportunity to hold managements feet to the fire and, from my perspective, it was squandered (again).
What's the point of having a contract if it's not going to be followed, and what's the point of paying dues to an organization to negotiate and uphold a contract if they are going to (continually) turn the other cheek?
Great post...as per usual.
Leine,
I understand your point. But here's my problem. I think (key word: "think") DALPA's scope giveaway is designed to meet the "spirit" (but not the "word") of the contractual scope terms. So DALPA took the magnanimous position of saying okay...
Where has the reverse happened? When has Delta honored the "spirit" of the contract as opposed to the written word? Did they do that with the Frontier/Republic scope issue? How about with the interpretation of the number of permitted 70+ seat RJ's?
Seriously.
My impression, based on many years at Delta, is management will hide behind contractual language when it's in their interest, and say "Gee fellas...this is what the contract means to us..." when it's convenient.
This was a (wasted) opportunity to hold managements feet to the fire and, from my perspective, it was squandered (again).
What's the point of having a contract if it's not going to be followed, and what's the point of paying dues to an organization to negotiate and uphold a contract if they are going to (continually) turn the other cheek?
06-09-2013, 05:28 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
I'm sorry 80, I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. The basic questions I see are: Did the agreement between Delta Management and the Pinnacle pilots violate the Delta Pilot Working Agreement? If so, what section specifically does it violate? Does it violate the RLA? I don't see how it violates either one. If some is going to explain it to me please remember simple words, I was a history major.......and that was quite awhile ago!
I am by no means endorsing what happened nor am I happy about it. I just don't see what recourse we have...
Denny
....and that was quite awhile ago!I am by no means endorsing what happened nor am I happy about it. I just don't see what recourse we have...
Denny
What I do know is that it sets a very dangerous precedent and Moak and Wychor should have been shut down and at the very least slapped on the wrist.
06-09-2013, 05:30 PM
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Actually.....I wouldn't. I'd get my car fixed and move on with my life. I've better things to do then fester and harp over what could've been. The problem with your analogy is that the system isn't broken. Everything we have is ours because as a group we approved it. Over 60% of our pilot group voted YES for this latest TA. And now it's our contract. Done. Over. We can't change it.
So while I enjoy and encourage sharing thoughts, I don't enjoy reading the same gripes, moans, and complaints about what is done. Choosing to not fly ALV+15 is now gone. The RJ scope has been changed. Over. We can either unite and decide how we want to fix it, or continue to mindlessly whine over something that 62% of our pilot group thought wasn't a bad deal.
So while I enjoy and encourage sharing thoughts, I don't enjoy reading the same gripes, moans, and complaints about what is done. Choosing to not fly ALV+15 is now gone. The RJ scope has been changed. Over. We can either unite and decide how we want to fix it, or continue to mindlessly whine over something that 62% of our pilot group thought wasn't a bad deal.
Something else sometimes happens in an argument. You learn youre wrong. It's not a bad thing. I'd love to be like "HEY DALPA IS SCREWING US ON [name it]!" And ACL says "Actually, this is why, this is why it's good for you, its a good thing." To which the response should be "oh, I stand corrected." I see 80 admit more than anyone when he's wrong. And trust me, I'd rather be wrong about ALPA then right. I just worry I'm not.
Also, here's the thing about a healthy discourse. I personally don't care if a pilot is DAL M88, 737, 767, senior, junior, ALPA lover, ALPA hater, hater in general, etc. I enjoy talking to anyone in person. I'd enjoy talking to Slow and Alfa although I may ask more questions than bow up and argue. I'm not that way, I like to get people to talk, I learn. But here on this forum is where we debate ideas and hope gunship sneaks a good pic of kate upton. It's almost a good thing names and rank and stuff is hidden. I think it's unique and good vs the dalpa forums if done correctly.
I'm a good FO. I can get along with anyone but I'm not sure everyone would get a long with me. Take Ferd for instance, look at some of the posts he's directed my way:
It hurts on the inside because some of its true. And to come from an F-15 Tomcat pilot that flew at Ft Monroe, that hurts even more.
If people on this board want to chew someone's ear off about scope, head over to the Alaska TA thread. Their NC decided to protect $$$ & their pilots in a merger scenario instead of establishing scope protection. Nothing stops Skypest, RAH, etc from flying 100 seat RJs as Alaska. NOTHING. And that's what THEIR NC chose.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 06-09-2013 at 05:41 PM.
06-09-2013, 05:36 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
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