Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-04-2013, 09:55 PM
Gets Weekends Off
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06-04-2013, 10:20 PM
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I'd like to remind people that simply hiring pilots won't do a lot for anyone advancement wise. So everyone who is griping about no hiring, think about how there will be no real advancement until retirements start. That's the truth. Until we (a) take delivery of growth airplanes (b) begin to see significant retirements hiring isn't really going to advance anyone.
So even if hiring had started "as early as 2012" it would've done little to no good for any of us. It would've simply provided some breathing room for the junior people at the bottom of the M88, DC9, and probably the 320. That's it. None of us would've moved up simply from hiring. You can't move up if there isn't anywhere to go up to.
So even if hiring had started "as early as 2012" it would've done little to no good for any of us. It would've simply provided some breathing room for the junior people at the bottom of the M88, DC9, and probably the 320. That's it. None of us would've moved up simply from hiring. You can't move up if there isn't anywhere to go up to.
Johnson,
You can also make the exact opposite argument - Retirements do nothing for the guys at the bottom of the list..... unless we hire to replace them. This is what has been happening since the merger retirees have mostly not been replaced - ie a shrinking pilot group.
Hiring at the bottom does not help the guys at the top unless.....
And retirements at the top do not help the guys at the bottom unless....
.....unless the guys who retire at the top are replaced with new hires at the bottom - then everyone throughout the list benefits.
So neither retirements or hiring by themselves benefits the whole group. Movement for all is only generated when retirees at the top are replaced by new hires at the bottom.
Scoop
06-04-2013, 10:26 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
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Posts: 17,473
Johnson,
You can also make the exact opposite argument - Retirements do nothing for the guys at the bottom of the list..... unless we hire to replace them. This is what has been happening since the merger retirees have mostly not been replaced - ie a shrinking pilot group.
Hiring at the bottom does not help the guys at the top unless.....
And retirements at the top do not help the guys at the bottom unless....
.....unless the guys who retire at the top are replaced with new hires at the bottom - then everyone throughout the list benefits.
So neither retirements or hiring by themselves benefits the whole group. Movement for all is only generated when retirees at the top are replaced by new hires at the bottom.
Scoop
You can also make the exact opposite argument - Retirements do nothing for the guys at the bottom of the list..... unless we hire to replace them. This is what has been happening since the merger retirees have mostly not been replaced - ie a shrinking pilot group.
Hiring at the bottom does not help the guys at the top unless.....
And retirements at the top do not help the guys at the bottom unless....
.....unless the guys who retire at the top are replaced with new hires at the bottom - then everyone throughout the list benefits.
So neither retirements or hiring by themselves benefits the whole group. Movement for all is only generated when retirees at the top are replaced by new hires at the bottom.
Scoop
) advancement that was created in the wake of that. Retirements plus full replacement of those bodies and preferably adding bodies? Yes. Yes yes yes.
06-04-2013, 10:40 PM
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EB conveniently made it sound like the 70 seat and above jets were with mainline by implying the other than 34,44 and 50 seaters where the "mainline" airplanes our customers tell us they much prefer. A sin of omission if you will. The semantic games our management play gets really old.
RA:... once we get it all fully up and running and the 50-seaters out and the 70- and 76-seaters in. We'll have a very significant competitive advantage on the regional industry. And number two, we'll have the ability to really control the product and make it same as the mainline. So very important strategic initiative that we have because the whole up-gauge -- the whole up-gauging strategy is a really massive change in this industry...
It's one of the reasons I argue that instead of demanding they park airplanes, we demand they're no longer able to fly them in Delta colors or interiors. Of course that could backfire "you know I bought this ticket on Delta, but they put me on this Compass Airlines? I never heard of them, but man I prefer them now. The planes are big but not too big, you can actually see out the windows and there is an overhead bin unlike all of those other little Delta jets."
Last edited by forgot to bid; 06-04-2013 at 10:57 PM.
06-04-2013, 10:57 PM
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2013 Q1 Discussion in reference to removing the 50-seaters and shifting the flying over to larger jumbo RJs:
Helane R. Becker - Cowen Securities LLC, Research DivisionThat's huge. And as we think about that then, how many years should we allow for that? I know it's in the pilot contract, right? It's like 2 to 3 years?
Richard H. Anderson - Chief Executive Officer and DirectorWell, no, we should be -- we should really, I think in 24 -- well, it's a 7-year pilot contract, Mike Campbell reminds me. But in terms of getting the shift done, it's really in the next 18 to 24 months.
Helane R. Becker - Cowen Securities LLC, Research DivisionThat's huge. And as we think about that then, how many years should we allow for that? I know it's in the pilot contract, right? It's like 2 to 3 years?
Richard H. Anderson - Chief Executive Officer and DirectorWell, no, we should be -- we should really, I think in 24 -- well, it's a 7-year pilot contract, Mike Campbell reminds me. But in terms of getting the shift done, it's really in the next 18 to 24 months.
Anyways, I'm going to break this answer up and half because I want to highlight something else:
RA: And that's where you see a big improvement in our regional carrier line. And we have a big ASM pickup because we're going to be able to operate the airline, the total Delta airline with probably a couple hundred fewer airplanes and still have the same ability to produce ASMs. So there's so much operating leverage in this move that we're excited about closing on the Pinnacle transaction.
DAL Negotiator: "Okay guys, here's the deal... we'll let you have those new 717s that we bought from Southwest IF, and listen to me, IF you give us more up-gauging/popular/cost effective/profitable [jumbo] regional jets. But, I'll make it even better for you, we'll shrink DCI down to the size we want it to be anyways especially if we get 717s and more 76-seaters. so there you go, you give us a few more of those jets you don't want to fly, we'll give you new Boeing 717s and we'll shrink DCI. Deal? Think about it. No wait, we don't have time to think about it, time value of a hand in the bush, sign now..."
06-04-2013, 11:09 PM
Da Hudge
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ftb: The 7 year contract being referenced is the Pinnacle concessionary contract.
06-04-2013, 11:17 PM
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2) June AE goal, get junior 7ER pilots to bid the MD-88. Remind them the 757 is going away and you may hold the 737 soon.
No wait, why not get them to bid the 737 right now? Well, because we need to save the 737 for more senior 7ER pilots as more 757s leave and we have more displacement bids? It's no secret now the 757 is leaving. From the Q1 discussion "We will begin taking delivery of 8 to 10 aircraft per month starting in September, which will allow us to retire nearly 40 older mainline aircraft, primarily 757s and the remaining DC-9s".
I think the real disappointment is seeing those block hour comparisons for 2013 vs 2012 and 2011. Sometimes I buy into the hope but they're telegraphing some things in every quarter discussion:
a) we're not hiring (via crew planning),
b) we're up-gauging which means more ASMs with fewer jets,
c) fewer jets means fewer pilots,
d) more productivity [to pay for the contract coupled with a reduction in profit sharing*] means fewer-er pilots.
e) pilots moving down to lower paying aircraft saves money.
b) we're up-gauging which means more ASMs with fewer jets,
c) fewer jets means fewer pilots,
d) more productivity [to pay for the contract coupled with a reduction in profit sharing*] means fewer-er pilots.
e) pilots moving down to lower paying aircraft saves money.
*their words not mine.
06-04-2013, 11:24 PM
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That's why I said that. Although that's unless Pinnacle pilots and ALPA have negotiated something else with Delta management.
RA:
And we've actually solved through that equation, and we're going to take our regional carrier fleet down from probably a peak of around 700 -- 600, 700 airplanes down to the low 400s, and we're going to have the best cost structure and the best operations.
Helane R. Becker - Cowen Securities LLC, Research DivisionThat's huge. And as we think about that then, how many years should we allow for that? I know it's in the pilot contract, right? It's like 2 to 3 years?
Richard H. Anderson - Chief Executive Officer and Director
Well, no, we should be -- we should really, I think in 24 -- well, it's a 7-year pilot contract, Mike Campbell reminds me. But in terms of getting the shift done, it's really in the next 18 to 24 months. And that's where you see a big improvement in our regional carrier line. And we have a big ASM pickup because we're going to be able to operate the airline, the total Delta airline
And we've actually solved through that equation, and we're going to take our regional carrier fleet down from probably a peak of around 700 -- 600, 700 airplanes down to the low 400s, and we're going to have the best cost structure and the best operations.
Helane R. Becker - Cowen Securities LLC, Research DivisionThat's huge. And as we think about that then, how many years should we allow for that? I know it's in the pilot contract, right? It's like 2 to 3 years?
Richard H. Anderson - Chief Executive Officer and Director
Well, no, we should be -- we should really, I think in 24 -- well, it's a 7-year pilot contract, Mike Campbell reminds me. But in terms of getting the shift done, it's really in the next 18 to 24 months. And that's where you see a big improvement in our regional carrier line. And we have a big ASM pickup because we're going to be able to operate the airline, the total Delta airline
ah, maybe you're right [hope you're right] and he was just going back to throw that info in but the Pinnacle pilot contract hadn't been discussed though?
More importantly, I was thinking, what would 8/4/3/3 look like when it's 8/4/3/3/0/0/0/0?
Last edited by forgot to bid; 06-04-2013 at 11:56 PM.
06-04-2013, 11:36 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
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Posts: 17,473
1) March AE goal, get MD-88 pilots to bid the 717. Saves money. Offer a summer off, tell them 88 overstaffed and will be cut anyways, reserve will suck, the 717 we'll have A/C, computers, tablets, etc. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.
2) June AE goal, get junior 7ER pilots to bid the MD-88. Remind them the 757 is going away and you may hold the 737 soon.
No wait, why not get them to bid the 737 right now? Well, because we need to save the 737 for more senior 7ER pilots as more 757s leave and we have more displacement bids? It's no secret now the 757 is leaving. From the Q1 discussion "We will begin taking delivery of 8 to 10 aircraft per month starting in September, which will allow us to retire nearly 40 older mainline aircraft, primarily 757s and the remaining DC-9s".
I think the real disappointment is seeing those block hour comparisons for 2013 vs 2012 and 2011. Sometimes I buy into the hope but they're telegraphing some things in every quarter discussion:
*their words not mine.
2) June AE goal, get junior 7ER pilots to bid the MD-88. Remind them the 757 is going away and you may hold the 737 soon.
No wait, why not get them to bid the 737 right now? Well, because we need to save the 737 for more senior 7ER pilots as more 757s leave and we have more displacement bids? It's no secret now the 757 is leaving. From the Q1 discussion "We will begin taking delivery of 8 to 10 aircraft per month starting in September, which will allow us to retire nearly 40 older mainline aircraft, primarily 757s and the remaining DC-9s".
I think the real disappointment is seeing those block hour comparisons for 2013 vs 2012 and 2011. Sometimes I buy into the hope but they're telegraphing some things in every quarter discussion:
a) we're not hiring (via crew planning),
b) we're up-gauging which means more ASMs with fewer jets,
c) fewer jets means fewer pilots,
d) more productivity [to pay for the contract coupled with a reduction in profit sharing*] means fewer-er pilots.
e) pilots moving down to lower paying aircraft saves money.
b) we're up-gauging which means more ASMs with fewer jets,
c) fewer jets means fewer pilots,
d) more productivity [to pay for the contract coupled with a reduction in profit sharing*] means fewer-er pilots.
e) pilots moving down to lower paying aircraft saves money.
*their words not mine.
Woof.
I raise you a very unhappy pomeranian (mine) for your unhappy derp dog:
06-04-2013, 11:52 PM
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
how about my Tibetan/chihuahua spaniel?
Pronounced "TY-BA-TAN" Spaniel. We didn't know what a TYBATAN Spaniel was but figured out they met Tibetan. Actually, he's a miniature-jackass, but at least he lives it up.
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