80ktsClamp

Jack- If the dudes running the DPA are so much more truthful and forthcoming, why do they continue to say that they are only XX cards away from calling a vote while many (maybe even most) of the cards have expired?

My worries on the ramifications of C2012 are slowly and unfortunately playing out, but I'm not going to replace the turd that is ALPA with a fresh steaming turd that would be the DPA.

Free Bird

Our union put forward a TA last year that required fewer pilots to operate the airline, it's that simple. At the road show the reps said "this TA is staffing positive". Either they lied to us or they weren't smart enough to see what the company was doing.

We actually fell for "we'll only get these airplanes if you ratify this TA" line. The really sickening thing is that we helped the company get rid of the 50 seaters only to give them more airplanes that directly compete with mainline jobs. Throw in the moving target JV compliance window and this contract really stings.

Im not sure that DPA is the answer, I do however believe that DALPA is part of the problem. IMO protecting jobs should be something that all Delta pilots agree on, yet we continually vote on things that give them away. Why is that?

80ktsClamp

Anyone notice that the crew resources memo stated that hiring has not been approved yet? It did not say "no" hiring, just not approved yet.


I really think they are just completely shooting from the hip and have no clue what is going on.

LeineLodge

Lots of holes in your "facts" Jack.

Just off the top of my head:

AF/KLM is not out of JV compliance contractually.

FPL is published on the ALPA website and has always been available via the treasurer.

We can't do this alone. Being a big union does hav benefits in Washington despite what you want to believe. Lobbying is a necessary evil and the independents are not present there.

I never heard a rep say there wasn't any more money. In the moment we didn't know, and just because they're spending it now doesn't mean we could have gotten it

Many other "facts" are more opinions from those that didn't get their way.

For the record I would have loved to have gotten more, but I made the best decision I could at the time and I am completely comfortable with how I voted. Your list is how you wish things to be, not how they really are.

I will concede that ALPA, like any large organization has many things it needs to work on. I'm not looking out for the best interests of ALPA-I'm concerned with the best interests of the delta pilot group. I just happen to think that ALPA is the best tool we have to get us there.

I urge you, and everyone else to engage the process/organization that we do have to improve our careers. Saying "those ALPA guys will never listen to us" is a cop out. We are all "those ALPA guys" and if you choose not to participate you have proxied your voice to those that will. This is not meant to be inflammatory-I sincerely hope that you will show up to meetings, talk to your reps, volunteer for something, write an article for your LEC's publication, etc...get involved.

Jack Bauer

If I am not mistaken they have stated the campaign now is turning from total cards to card renewals.

One thing I think we can agree on.....even if several hundred (lets say 300) of the cards filled out were the ALPA guys who keep saying they filled out a card to see what was going on out of curiosity and some were lookie looers...you still have over 5000 pilots who filled out cards likely with a purpose. That purpose is probably festering even bigger now given the "well get em next year" nonsense that keeps repeating year after year and level of distrust our current union has built for themselves.

Regardless of what those who want to protect their current position say here, a large group of pilots are entertaining a change. The movement has made more progress than even I thought it would...and it is still here now getting card renewals and adding first time cards.

80ktsClamp

I, like most of the card submitters, filled one out with a purpose, Jack. The DPA's actions and conduct have been the prime cause for non-renewals.

The morons running the DPA movement have ensured that many of us have had to shake our heads, sigh, and say "well, maybe something better will come along sometime... but for now, ALPA will have to do."

Most people I've encountered who submitted cards along with me have not renewed theirs for the same reasons.

You are incorrect on the count:

http://deltapilotsassociation.org/member-form/

40 to go? Probably closer to 4000 to get renewed.... So, we replace one lying organization with another. What's to be gained?

LeineLodge

I filled out a card, and there is no way they'll be getting a renewal. I'm not alone.

I felt the idea had merit at the time and was worth exploring, but 80 said it well that DPA would be worse, far worse.

Things are not perfect and the never will be. I'll take our reality any day though over DPA's promise of utopia. I'm always wary of those that over promise without ever having had to produce concrete results. The DPA bullet points you put up are admirable goals, but ive seen nothing to show me that the few guys running the side show are capable of executing even a smidgen of what they're promising.

TenYearsGone

RA loves 9500 just like he loved 4900 at NWA.

TEN

These last few pages have left a nauseating feeling in my stomach.

Jack Bauer

Can we at least agree your union autonomously changing the lookback for compliance to three years was nothing short of asinine?

They are still not letting all the details out and what they are presenting came only after much begging and pleading for them to do so. The format they are using to disseminate the info is metered based upon their personal whim.

Lobbying will not be lost with a new union...in all likelihood it will grow more poweful because more pilots will be able to get behind and donate to an organization they trust with their money.

I did many times. In fact what I heard was if we didnt take the first deal offered, we would likely end up with even less.

Change has been tried time and again. The structure is set up in a such a way that it is impossible to change...the top of the organization is nearly impenitrable by the line guy trying to get involved and change from within.

The same mantra gets repeated year after year...get involved. Guys have tried only to have their voice mushroomed. In the mean time loose contracts are negotiated, work rules are lost, small pay increases are eaten up by inflation, guys are getting bumped back to lower paying equipment, the seniority list and block hours for Delta mainline pilots shrink, etc.

ALPA has had many chances to change. They dig their heels in and lash out at their own constituents trying to cast blame away from themselves when most of the blame falls squarely on their shoulders...they accept little to no responsibility. It would be much less work to level the current organization than it would be to try to add a new door here and a walk in closet over there. It just aint happening and yet the backward slide continues.

Jack Bauer

Where am I incorrect on the count? I said there were likely greater than 5000 who signed a card because they felt it was worthwhile. Beyond that, both of us can only speculate based upon our own antidotal observations who's cards have been or will/will not be renewed.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point. I think many still have hope for the new organization regardless of some of the polarizing remarks Tim has made (no doubt when he is fueled up about the latest ALPA fiasco). Btw, I have watched some of the video conferences DPA has put on. Many of those guys are not "morons" as you say but honest to goodness good guys looking for change. Many are level headed, rational thinking guys trying to improve the profession by taking some control back, changing the current trajectory for present day and future airline pilots and their families. I think it is disingenuous for you to label all of them "morons". I dislike ALPA and I don't call them morons. I know many ALPA guys I respect greatly and feel their pain when they try to change and are taken out of the most important decision making processes. DPA has more support than you are giving it credit for IMHO.