Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-04-2013, 10:22 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
It also depends on each airline's fleet mix, which is the argument for Longevity Pay.
Everybody at Emirates is a Widebody pilot, but nobody, no matter how senior, is now or ever will be, a Wide Body Capt. or F/O at South West.
CAL has a whole bunch more 777's than we do, so of course guys with less time (relative to DL pilots) are going to be sitting in Wide Body seats. As we park our 757's, since they are in the same category as the 'wide body' 767, it will get more and more senior, just look at the 100 767 displacements in the new A/E out now.
I'm here for the money, I could not care less which airplane I'm in, I'd fly a Cub on floats all day if it paid more than the 777, and I'd have a lot more fun doing it!
Everybody at Emirates is a Widebody pilot, but nobody, no matter how senior, is now or ever will be, a Wide Body Capt. or F/O at South West.
CAL has a whole bunch more 777's than we do, so of course guys with less time (relative to DL pilots) are going to be sitting in Wide Body seats. As we park our 757's, since they are in the same category as the 'wide body' 767, it will get more and more senior, just look at the 100 767 displacements in the new A/E out now.
I'm here for the money, I could not care less which airplane I'm in, I'd fly a Cub on floats all day if it paid more than the 777, and I'd have a lot more fun doing it!
06-04-2013, 10:59 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
I was one of those "out of senority" FOs - every other pilot at Delta had the opportunity to bid NYC 7ER FO - and not enough did, so new hires could pick it. Don't complain it's "out of senority" - it's exactly what I could hold. Those who complain should of bid it. And as for skill level that Timbo alludes to in another post, I had more heavy international time in the left seat than some of the Captains I flew with. We knew what we were doing across the Atlantic.
I held a line for 9 months with all international flying. And I mean Europe and the mid-east. I went all the "cherry" places on my line. Istanbul, Rome, Valencia, Barcelona, Berlin, Manchester, London, Shannon, Nice, Frankfurt, AMS, CPT, DKR, GRU, etc etc.
Although I'm sure you'll ignore this comment, but people look at all sorts of parameters of why this job is "better or worse" than it was years ago. Trip mix that they can hold, whether they are working weekends, commutability, pay, days worked, line vs reserve, aircraft type, destinations, red-eyes, etc are all things we look at. I think the angst that most people on this forum as feeling is that in the last three years, almost all those parameters have decreased in one way or another. In the way that many of us pilots look at the job, our job satisfaction rating has decreased. Perhaps the way you look at it, the job has improved. I don't doubt there are parts of it that you can point to and say "XX is better and YY is better."
The problem is that many of the things that have led to the decrease in satisfaction are things that people think ALPA has allowed to happen. Now I don't discount the severe recession and economy - I think that has a lot to do with it. But when ALPA signs off on JVs that actually eliminate Delta pilot jobs (as we see them) - it causes some heartburn.
I held a line for 9 months with all international flying. And I mean Europe and the mid-east. I went all the "cherry" places on my line. Istanbul, Rome, Valencia, Barcelona, Berlin, Manchester, London, Shannon, Nice, Frankfurt, AMS, CPT, DKR, GRU, etc etc.
Although I'm sure you'll ignore this comment, but people look at all sorts of parameters of why this job is "better or worse" than it was years ago. Trip mix that they can hold, whether they are working weekends, commutability, pay, days worked, line vs reserve, aircraft type, destinations, red-eyes, etc are all things we look at. I think the angst that most people on this forum as feeling is that in the last three years, almost all those parameters have decreased in one way or another. In the way that many of us pilots look at the job, our job satisfaction rating has decreased. Perhaps the way you look at it, the job has improved. I don't doubt there are parts of it that you can point to and say "XX is better and YY is better."
The problem is that many of the things that have led to the decrease in satisfaction are things that people think ALPA has allowed to happen. Now I don't discount the severe recession and economy - I think that has a lot to do with it. But when ALPA signs off on JVs that actually eliminate Delta pilot jobs (as we see them) - it causes some heartburn.
I have to take a little offense at the "out-of-seniority" comment as well.
As to regard to outsourcing/joint venture agreements, I think you paint an accurate description. I would love to see us add some wide body aircraft and increase our international flying, but more importantly I'd like to see us do it when the time is right and it will make us money.
06-04-2013, 11:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: DL 7ER F/O
Posts: 249
FTB,
It was simply the perfect storm. The lump sum retirements caused massive movement on the DAL side, & based on the economy with or without the merger it'd would've been corrected. With the economy tanking, DAL as a stand alone carrier would've halted the international expansion and pulled out of markets just as we've done as a merged company. There would've been displacements, & 07 hires would've been kicked to NYC M88 B. Heck, NWA & DAL likely would've furloughed again.
It was simply the perfect storm. The lump sum retirements caused massive movement on the DAL side, & based on the economy with or without the merger it'd would've been corrected. With the economy tanking, DAL as a stand alone carrier would've halted the international expansion and pulled out of markets just as we've done as a merged company. There would've been displacements, & 07 hires would've been kicked to NYC M88 B. Heck, NWA & DAL likely would've furloughed again.
When the lump sum retirements were happening DAL was also parking airplanes, fleet size went from over 600 to under 450, so that ate up a lot of the massive movement that is perceived as happening. I maybe gained a little in category but did not get a new seat out of the deal.
06-04-2013, 11:11 AM
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They absolutely will choke on their maniacal, dellusional, EGO driven, Howard Hughes-ian widebody order book. The question is when and how much yields will US airlines have to bleed or outright gift them capacity until the inevitable happens?
06-04-2013, 11:18 AM
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CAL has a whole bunch more 777's than we do, so of course guys with less time (relative to DL pilots) are going to be sitting in Wide Body seats. As we park our 757's, since they are in the same category as the 'wide body' 767, it will get more and more senior, just look at the 100 767 displacements in the new A/E out now.
06-04-2013, 11:34 AM
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The new hire ER phenoms in '07-08 (and again in '10) weren't because of payrates, like in your example, but mostly QOL. In '07-08 the Great ER Expansion, especially in NYC, saw a dramatic shift to what was considered generally undesirable flying. What was once the flying lounge chair to productive, ultra commutable European paradise became the F train to Malariaville, not to mention more and more domestic. If you were on the bottom you had to slather yourself with neurotoxins and slam powerful medications just to safely be on reserve or a junior lineholder. It was still a fairly senior seat, but it was in a junior base and now no one wanted to be junior on it. So guys avoided it like the plague.<—pun intended
Periods of real or percieved suatained hiring also tend to encourage guys to bypass things they want for a bid or three, because they "just know" they can get it whenever they want. That makes things even more junior...at least until the music stops. Then the senior pilots start grabbing seats via a number of scenarios and the juniors left standing in the truly junior categories. especially when there are displacements but even when there aren't.
Even with all that, it started to reverse and many of the all ER classes of '08 were getting flushed. By '10-12 we were deep into the Great ER Purge, 330/764 takeover of much of the premium stuff, with a lot of the other cool international stuff going away forever, even more domestic, but still most of the bad stuff. So it started "going junior" again. Not because no one wanted it, but because no one wanted to be junior on it. Used to be the worst curse your luck woe as me thing they could give you was DUB, and now that's a treat for any RSV and for many lineholders.
And now here we are and its officially a dying fleet, so they are kicking guys off it as the clone troopers in Planning faithfully execute "Order 66" from the 4th floor in the final phase of the Great ER Purge.
06-04-2013, 11:37 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
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Posts: 12,544
I don't think we've made much progress in the last 5 years, I do think we are about to. There are many good things that are going to come together in the next few years. I still think UCAL is going to go through what we went through once they get their SLI done, you know; route optimization. We'll see.
06-04-2013, 11:45 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
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Yup. Their retirements are front loaded. Ours are more spread out.
06-04-2013, 11:51 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
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Posts: 7,738
Is there much route overlap at UCon? I'm just wondering how much shrinkage they might see when all is said and done. A lot of our shrinkage since the merger was not due to route overlap, but rather the Euro Economy going into the crapper, causing the cutbacks in ER flying.
I've not been paying much attention to what's going on behind the scenes at UCal but it seems CAL is hiring and Untied is recalling, is that just to replace retirements, or are they adding flying too, now that they are finally going to be getting the 787.
Are they parking any 'old' planes as those 787's arrive?
06-04-2013, 11:59 AM
veut gagner ŕ la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
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Posts: 23,286
When the lump sum retirements were happening DAL was also parking airplanes, fleet size went from over 600 to under 450, so that ate up a lot of the massive movement that is perceived as happening. I maybe gained a little in category but did not get a new seat out of the deal.
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