Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-04-2013, 08:40 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
I know there were rare circumstances that led to the flying seen by 7ER new hires in 07 and 08. However, here are some reference points as to where those folks would be had they chosen the other airlines that were hiring. Real data points...not generalizations:
CAL: 2006 hire upgrading from WB FO to 73 Capt right now.
SWA: 2006-7 hires holding T-W-Th lines every week, holidays off, making $160k/yr
ATN: On their way to SWA, see above
UPS: WB reserve or NB line, making $180k/yr
FDX: Can't even talk about it!
UAL: Furloughed, now recalled with about the same career expectations as DAL.
I'm still grateful to be at DAL. I'm just tired of ManageDALPAment telling us how much progress we've made as a pilot group when I see 80% of the progress as backwards.
CAL: 2006 hire upgrading from WB FO to 73 Capt right now.
SWA: 2006-7 hires holding T-W-Th lines every week, holidays off, making $160k/yr
ATN: On their way to SWA, see above
UPS: WB reserve or NB line, making $180k/yr
FDX: Can't even talk about it!
UAL: Furloughed, now recalled with about the same career expectations as DAL.
I'm still grateful to be at DAL. I'm just tired of ManageDALPAment telling us how much progress we've made as a pilot group when I see 80% of the progress as backwards.
06-04-2013, 08:56 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: MD FO
Posts: 107
I seem to remember seeing two reports from crew planning for an AE, 22 D.2 (pilot requirements) and 22 D.3 (pilot staffing). This AE I only see 22 D.2. Does anyone know where to find the other or if it is supposed to be posted on the crew resources and scheduling page? Thanks.
06-04-2013, 08:57 AM
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Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+
Posts: 1,278
For Delta it may have been an outlier but compared to other major carriers like CAL and FedEx getting heavies as new hires and flying then internationally was or is normal.
The guy who soloed my made 764 Captain at CAL in his late 30s of a ten year upgrade. Well 764, 762, 753, 752 Captain. I know FedEx a year or less ago was putting guys in the right seat of the MD11 right off the bat. I know because the 18 year or so MD11 LCA was telling me about it. Delta guys would call you a liar for suggesting that was happening and possibly suffer a minor stroke that anyone would have such an opportunity given how long it took them to get to the right seat of the ER.
I know I know, it was out of seniority that I bid for an got ATL 7ER B when I barely had gotten off of new hire OE in JFK. Wait that's not out of senior... ah whatever.
The real crazy thing was new hire FO becoming a ATL 767 AQFO or whatever that called. That's nuts. That's crazy talk.
The guy who soloed my made 764 Captain at CAL in his late 30s of a ten year upgrade. Well 764, 762, 753, 752 Captain. I know FedEx a year or less ago was putting guys in the right seat of the MD11 right off the bat. I know because the 18 year or so MD11 LCA was telling me about it. Delta guys would call you a liar for suggesting that was happening and possibly suffer a minor stroke that anyone would have such an opportunity given how long it took them to get to the right seat of the ER.
I know I know, it was out of seniority that I bid for an got ATL 7ER B when I barely had gotten off of new hire OE in JFK. Wait that's not out of senior... ah whatever.
The real crazy thing was new hire FO becoming a ATL 767 AQFO or whatever that called. That's nuts. That's crazy talk.
Last edited by dalad; 06-04-2013 at 09:08 AM.
06-04-2013, 09:08 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 7ERB
Posts: 2,039
I show in June 2011 when you counted up the REG and RES lines that we had around 10,516 REG/RES pilots with 708 jets or 14.85 per plane.
In June 2012, with 722 jets, he had 10,537 REG/RES pilots or 14.59 per plane.
In June 2013, with 719 jets, we had 10,446 REG/RES pilots or 14.53 per plane.
Notice a trend?
In June 2012, with 722 jets, he had 10,537 REG/RES pilots or 14.59 per plane.
In June 2013, with 719 jets, we had 10,446 REG/RES pilots or 14.53 per plane.
Notice a trend?
Proactive engagement to extinct our careers via outsourcing/JVs and productivity gains.
The trend, I worry, is that we will not have any US flying jobs left in the future.
I see Qatar was invited to join oneworld (if you can't beat em, join em). So who do you guys think will finish off the rest of DAL's international flying after the Virgins are done with us, Emirates or Etihad?
New capt positions or not, tiny pay raises or not, 757s retired as planned or not, right now it takes 10-15 years to hold the intl line many new hires were holding in '08. For about the same money, and working a little harder.
Someone here predicted a year or two ago that DAL is going to become a mid-range connecting airline, letting RJs do the short stuff and codeshare partners do the big stuff, with DAL pilots scrounging for the transcon redeyes and 767/330 size planes as our "widebodies". I think that's exactly what's happening as there seems to be no interest in expanding intl flying or growing/renewing our dwindling widebody fleet.
Is it possible that RA and EB have already mentally conceded that a Mideast supercarrier will be flying the big planes for DL and that they will pretend to fight it publicly until announcing a codeshare the next day? Do we have ANY say in this? Maybe we should stay a step ahead and push for longevity-based pay now. Because I haven't seen a bid in the last five years (this one included) where a lot of DAL pilots moved from a smaller airplane to a bigger one. I've seen the exact opposite, bid after bid after bid.
P.S. That's one data point..."progressing" from widebody international lineholder to narrowbody domestic reserve during a period of record profitability and market consolidation, where we are arguably five years of the others in that process. If anyone's life has gotten much, much better in the past five years at Delta, I'd like to hear about it. Seriously...because for some maybe it has. And if you ask ALPA, it's gotten much better for all of us.
New capt positions or not, tiny pay raises or not, 757s retired as planned or not, right now it takes 10-15 years to hold the intl line many new hires were holding in '08. For about the same money, and working a little harder.
Someone here predicted a year or two ago that DAL is going to become a mid-range connecting airline, letting RJs do the short stuff and codeshare partners do the big stuff, with DAL pilots scrounging for the transcon redeyes and 767/330 size planes as our "widebodies". I think that's exactly what's happening as there seems to be no interest in expanding intl flying or growing/renewing our dwindling widebody fleet.
Is it possible that RA and EB have already mentally conceded that a Mideast supercarrier will be flying the big planes for DL and that they will pretend to fight it publicly until announcing a codeshare the next day? Do we have ANY say in this? Maybe we should stay a step ahead and push for longevity-based pay now. Because I haven't seen a bid in the last five years (this one included) where a lot of DAL pilots moved from a smaller airplane to a bigger one. I've seen the exact opposite, bid after bid after bid.
P.S. That's one data point..."progressing" from widebody international lineholder to narrowbody domestic reserve during a period of record profitability and market consolidation, where we are arguably five years of the others in that process. If anyone's life has gotten much, much better in the past five years at Delta, I'd like to hear about it. Seriously...because for some maybe it has. And if you ask ALPA, it's gotten much better for all of us.
I think the good ol' boys in the management arena know the plan. We are just along for the ride and are told what we want to hear.
TEN
06-04-2013, 09:13 AM
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06-04-2013, 09:51 AM
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Position: Light Chop
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Another words this a recent thing.
06-04-2013, 09:53 AM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
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The new hires who went into NYC were out of seniority as you know. There were I believe the bottom 90 copilots. We keep about 60 reserves so there were some that held lines. I flew all Europe in that time period and never had a new hire on a trip unless he was a reserve. I guess perhaps you mean GEO or some of those trips by international.
I held a line for 9 months with all international flying. And I mean Europe and the mid-east. I went all the "cherry" places on my line. Istanbul, Rome, Valencia, Barcelona, Berlin, Manchester, London, Shannon, Nice, Frankfurt, AMS, CPT, DKR, GRU, etc etc.
Although I'm sure you'll ignore this comment, but people look at all sorts of parameters of why this job is "better or worse" than it was years ago. Trip mix that they can hold, whether they are working weekends, commutability, pay, days worked, line vs reserve, aircraft type, destinations, red-eyes, etc are all things we look at. I think the angst that most people on this forum as feeling is that in the last three years, almost all those parameters have decreased in one way or another. In the way that many of us pilots look at the job, our job satisfaction rating has decreased. Perhaps the way you look at it, the job has improved. I don't doubt there are parts of it that you can point to and say "XX is better and YY is better."
The problem is that many of the things that have led to the decrease in satisfaction are things that people think ALPA has allowed to happen. Now I don't discount the severe recession and economy - I think that has a lot to do with it. But when ALPA signs off on JVs that actually eliminate Delta pilot jobs (as we see them) - it causes some heartburn.
06-04-2013, 09:55 AM
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I just bring it up when someone says that going to WB early or as a new hire is out of the norm. It may be out of the norm at DAL but not elsewhere, which means it might mean we are out of the norm.
I guess its a fwiw. I remember the shock a lot of guys had, me included, to find out just how much more a SWA 735 pilot was paid than a DAL 767 pilot a few years back. I kind if get than sane look when you discuss what other airlines do in regard to movement and placement but its just a fwiw up until as iaflyer points out we start seeing JVs and code shares and large jumbo RJs growing in share of the flyibg.. then its a little more serious.
06-04-2013, 10:12 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,959
Here's a funny story for you Herk, along the same lines as this discussion.
Back in summer of 2000, while we were still negotiating what later became C2K (finally signed in the summer of 2001) I was jumpseating out of MCO to ATL on an L10-11. At the time, I was a ATL MD-11 F/O.
So I get into a jumpseat, and along comes another Delta Pilot for the second jumpseat. He's an old fart, and a Capt. also in uniform. I figure he's got to be an ER Capt. or someone, also commuting to ATL. So after we get above 10,000' he starts asking me where I'm going, what I'm doing, etc. I tell him I'm going to London on the Mighty Dog.
He says, "Well, I just hope they FIX that 737 Express Pay Rate in this contract, $100 hr. for a Captain is just not right, YOU make $50 an hour more than I do, you're just and F/O, and I'm a Captain!"
I said, "I agree, and that's why I voted NO in 1996." and then I asked him what he's flying.
He said Express Captain. (he was 'old' because he was a 45yr. old retired LT. Col. as a new hire)
I asked him how many years he had at Delta, he said 3.
I then tapped the engineer on the shoulder and asked him how many years he had, he said 5, then I asked the F/O how many years, he said 10.
I then looked at this moron, and I said, "Yup, we'd better fix it, and as soon as we do, I'm bidding it, and so is he, and him too, (pointing at the engineer and F/O) and YOU will be displaced to NYC 727 engineer, where you BELONG!"
I guess it had never occurred to this nit-wit that the ONLY reason he was a 3 year 737 Captain, was because of the EXPRESS PAY RATES!
Back in summer of 2000, while we were still negotiating what later became C2K (finally signed in the summer of 2001) I was jumpseating out of MCO to ATL on an L10-11. At the time, I was a ATL MD-11 F/O.
So I get into a jumpseat, and along comes another Delta Pilot for the second jumpseat. He's an old fart, and a Capt. also in uniform. I figure he's got to be an ER Capt. or someone, also commuting to ATL. So after we get above 10,000' he starts asking me where I'm going, what I'm doing, etc. I tell him I'm going to London on the Mighty Dog.
He says, "Well, I just hope they FIX that 737 Express Pay Rate in this contract, $100 hr. for a Captain is just not right, YOU make $50 an hour more than I do, you're just and F/O, and I'm a Captain!"
I said, "I agree, and that's why I voted NO in 1996." and then I asked him what he's flying.
He said Express Captain. (he was 'old' because he was a 45yr. old retired LT. Col. as a new hire)
I asked him how many years he had at Delta, he said 3.
I then tapped the engineer on the shoulder and asked him how many years he had, he said 5, then I asked the F/O how many years, he said 10.
I then looked at this moron, and I said, "Yup, we'd better fix it, and as soon as we do, I'm bidding it, and so is he, and him too, (pointing at the engineer and F/O) and YOU will be displaced to NYC 727 engineer, where you BELONG!"
I guess it had never occurred to this nit-wit that the ONLY reason he was a 3 year 737 Captain, was because of the EXPRESS PAY RATES!
06-04-2013, 10:16 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
I know there were rare circumstances that led to the flying seen by 7ER new hires in 07 and 08. However, here are some reference points as to where those folks would be had they chosen the other airlines that were hiring. Real data points...not generalizations:
CAL: 2006 hire upgrading from WB FO to 73 Capt right now.
Great! Good luck holding that once the lists are combined.
SWA: 2006-7 hires holding T-W-Th lines every week, holidays off, making $160k/yr
The same is happening here, except for the $160K part.
ATN: On their way to SWA, see above
Have fun telling the AT CAs being kicked to the right seat that they're moving on up.
UPS: WB reserve or NB line, making $180k/yr
Still guys on furlough. Hostile management and bad labor relations. You want to fly boxes all night long all over the world? Go for it. I'll pass.
FDX: Can't even talk about it!
Nobody on furlough and you can put your app in anytime. Still flying boxes all over the world crossing all sorts of different time zones. What passenger airline pilots are making Fed Ex wages across the board?
UAL: Furloughed, now recalled with about the same career expectations as DAL.
I think you'll have to wait until the lists are combined before you make that statement.
I'm still grateful to be at DAL. I'm just tired of ManageDALPAment telling us how much progress we've made as a pilot group when I see 80% of the progress as backwards.
CAL: 2006 hire upgrading from WB FO to 73 Capt right now.
Great! Good luck holding that once the lists are combined.
SWA: 2006-7 hires holding T-W-Th lines every week, holidays off, making $160k/yr
The same is happening here, except for the $160K part.
ATN: On their way to SWA, see above
Have fun telling the AT CAs being kicked to the right seat that they're moving on up.
UPS: WB reserve or NB line, making $180k/yr
Still guys on furlough. Hostile management and bad labor relations. You want to fly boxes all night long all over the world? Go for it. I'll pass.
FDX: Can't even talk about it!
Nobody on furlough and you can put your app in anytime. Still flying boxes all over the world crossing all sorts of different time zones. What passenger airline pilots are making Fed Ex wages across the board?
UAL: Furloughed, now recalled with about the same career expectations as DAL.
I think you'll have to wait until the lists are combined before you make that statement.
I'm still grateful to be at DAL. I'm just tired of ManageDALPAment telling us how much progress we've made as a pilot group when I see 80% of the progress as backwards.
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