Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-04-2013, 07:13 AM
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FlyZ
What Herkflyr said. Also, remember, you merged with a mature pilot group (didn't have a rush for the door with our pension) where international went at least the 5 year point (my crappie memory but that is a conservative estimate). Also, our junior international guys were on the 757 flying Asia (me) because the Whale and DC-10 Second Officers made more $$ than ANY narrow body copilot........and thus slightly more senior (in general, yes some guys wanted to FLY and ignored the money).
As you know, what guys do and don't fly is always convoluted by wants, desires and interests..............but you being an international guy out of the box at Delta was a stroke of luck/timing probably never to be seen again. It had nothing to do with combining the ER and domestic categories, that happened post merger.
What Herkflyr said. Also, remember, you merged with a mature pilot group (didn't have a rush for the door with our pension) where international went at least the 5 year point (my crappie memory but that is a conservative estimate). Also, our junior international guys were on the 757 flying Asia (me) because the Whale and DC-10 Second Officers made more $$ than ANY narrow body copilot........and thus slightly more senior (in general, yes some guys wanted to FLY and ignored the money).
As you know, what guys do and don't fly is always convoluted by wants, desires and interests..............but you being an international guy out of the box at Delta was a stroke of luck/timing probably never to be seen again. It had nothing to do with combining the ER and domestic categories, that happened post merger.
He said, "I'd be stuck on reserve forever, and might even get displaced off it, and have to go to 88 school anyway." Many of the new hires with longer commutes (he lives in TX) bid the 88 over the ER, in an attempt to move up to line holder sooner, making their life a little better than living in a crash pad in NYC 19 days a month.
I heard they actually had to ASSIGN the right seat of the NYC 76ER to some of the new hires coming out of training, due to that same reason. I also heard we had a couple newbs divert over the North Atlantic, while the Capt. was on break, when they were trying to upload new winds in the FMS and got the (standard) "insufficient fuel" message! The story goes, one of the F/A's woke the Capt. and asked him why they just turned 90 degrees off course!
I head not long after that incident, the FAA told Delta to stop putting new hires in the right seat of the ER!
06-04-2013, 07:15 AM
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I'd like to remind people that simply hiring pilots won't do a lot for anyone advancement wise. So everyone who is griping about no hiring, think about how there will be no real advancement until retirements start. That's the truth. Until we (a) take delivery of growth airplanes (b) begin to see significant retirements hiring isn't really going to advance anyone.
So even if hiring had started "as early as 2012" it would've done little to no good for any of us. It would've simply provided some breathing room for the junior people at the bottom of the M88, DC9, and probably the 320. That's it. None of us would've moved up simply from hiring. You can't move up if there isn't anywhere to go up to.
So even if hiring had started "as early as 2012" it would've done little to no good for any of us. It would've simply provided some breathing room for the junior people at the bottom of the M88, DC9, and probably the 320. That's it. None of us would've moved up simply from hiring. You can't move up if there isn't anywhere to go up to.
Last edited by johnso29; 06-04-2013 at 07:36 AM.
06-04-2013, 07:17 AM
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2 comments. The first highlight above was what management could have called a "sleeper cell" They got that into our contract years ago, and never exploited it until recently. How it ever got there in the first place is beyond me... The second highlight is a comment that I despise. If they got it in a bid, they were not out of seniority. Period.
1. The "sleeper cell" observation is just completely irrelevant. Delta--and every other airline in history--has always had the ability to assign flying any way they want. Even today the 777, which is 95% ultra-long-haul flying, has two day trips that fly ATL-LAX, layover, then LAX-ATL back on day two. Are you stating that we should have a separate 777 "domestic" category just for those trips?
2. The pilots who were on the 7ER in 07-08 were usually assigned those categories as newhires--that could only have happened if those positions went unfilled on an AE. That actually happened, but will most likely never happen again. AND, that all happened at a time when the company was vastly increasing flying to Europe (pre economic meltdown) and hadn't stop flying to several Middle East markets (JFK-AMM, JFK-CAI) prior to the "Arab Spring."
Bottom line is that any new hire in 07 who got the 7ER bid, and was able to fly to international destinations, was part of a very unique one-time only set of circumstances--just like guys in their second year with the company were flying Delta Express captain (and holding a line) in 1998.
I don't resent any of it and am actually happy for anyone who was able to hold Kiev in year two. I just don't want to hear complaints from said guys as if their early "success" was somehow owed them, and any lack of ability to continue that at this point in time is something of a conspiracy.
06-04-2013, 07:23 AM
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It was simply the perfect storm. The lump sum retirements caused massive movement on the DAL side, & based on the economy with or without the merger it'd would've been corrected. With the economy tanking, DAL as a stand alone carrier would've halted the international expansion and pulled out of markets just as we've done as a merged company. There would've been displacements, & 07 hires would've been kicked to NYC M88 B. Heck, NWA & DAL likely would've furloughed again.
06-04-2013, 07:25 AM
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2 comments. The first highlight above was what management could have called a "sleeper cell" They got that into our contract years ago, and never exploited it until recently. How it ever got there in the first place is beyond me... The second highlight is a comment that I despise. If they got it in a bid, they were not out of seniority. Period.
As far as the new hires in NYC on the ER without the domestic flying that was in the category they would not have been there at all as the flying would not have supported that many pilots. The big expansion of ER pilots in NY came with adding domestic and Latin American/Caribbean flying.
06-04-2013, 07:41 AM
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If you held an international line as a 2007/8 hire, consider yourself extremely lucky. That was a statistical outlier and far from the historical norm. However, it is human nature to take a snapshot at a moment in time when you are new to an environment, and naturally assume that however things are that very second is how they always have been and always will be. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Here are a couple of other points. ALPA did not "let" the company combine the international and domestic ER categories. The company has always had that ability. As I've said before, there are both pros and cons from both a company and union perspective to combining--or keeping separate--the international and domestic categories. The company has chosen to combine them at this point in time. So what? Every other airline has always done it this way. No conspiracy here.
Also, your point that the company "had to pay double or 1 1/2 times" if they assigned a domestic category trip to an ER category is flawed. Again, the company has ALWAYS had the option of putting any domestic time that they wanted into an international bid package. IF the company in a pinch assigned a domestic category's domestic trip to an ER guy, then there would be some financial penalties to the company--but this was very very rare.
Bottom line is that for decades the international categories were very senior and took a long time to even get into. The 2007/8 new hires that were hired right into the 7ER right seat were one-time aberrations. You cannot have it both ways. You can't say "hey, I was holding a regular international line in year two, and ALPA hosed me out of it" without acknowledging that almost no DAL pilots has EVER been able to say that.
Here are a couple of other points. ALPA did not "let" the company combine the international and domestic ER categories. The company has always had that ability. As I've said before, there are both pros and cons from both a company and union perspective to combining--or keeping separate--the international and domestic categories. The company has chosen to combine them at this point in time. So what? Every other airline has always done it this way. No conspiracy here.
Also, your point that the company "had to pay double or 1 1/2 times" if they assigned a domestic category trip to an ER category is flawed. Again, the company has ALWAYS had the option of putting any domestic time that they wanted into an international bid package. IF the company in a pinch assigned a domestic category's domestic trip to an ER guy, then there would be some financial penalties to the company--but this was very very rare.
Bottom line is that for decades the international categories were very senior and took a long time to even get into. The 2007/8 new hires that were hired right into the 7ER right seat were one-time aberrations. You cannot have it both ways. You can't say "hey, I was holding a regular international line in year two, and ALPA hosed me out of it" without acknowledging that almost no DAL pilots has EVER been able to say that.
The guy who soloed my made 764 Captain at CAL in his late 30s of a ten year upgrade. Well 764, 762, 753, 752 Captain. I know FedEx a year or less ago was putting guys in the right seat of the MD11 right off the bat. I know because the 18 year or so MD11 LCA was telling me about it. Delta guys would call you a liar for suggesting that was happening and possibly suffer a minor stroke that anyone would have such an opportunity given how long it took them to get to the right seat of the ER.
I know I know, it was out of seniority that I bid for an got ATL 7ER B when I barely had gotten off of new hire OE in JFK. Wait that's not out of senior... ah whatever.
The real crazy thing was new hire FO becoming a ATL 767 AQFO or whatever that called. That's nuts. That's crazy talk.
06-04-2013, 08:20 AM
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Keep in mind that traditionally, the closest you should have been able to get to an ER cockpit was on the jumpseat, let alone hold a line as a new hire. Not being ugly about it, but as an 01 hire, I finally got on the ER in 07. Before that, a person was usually here 10 years or more before being able to hold it. Post BK, things got screwy because of the early outs.
but 10 years is optimistic probably. You might want to have a peak at the numbers here regarding mainline/regional flying and rethink your position, because you are starting to look silly. Sorry.
06-04-2013, 08:31 AM
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Two comments back at you.
1. The "sleeper cell" observation is just completely irrelevant. Delta--and every other airline in history--has always had the ability to assign flying any way they want. Even today the 777, which is 95% ultra-long-haul flying, has two day trips that fly ATL-LAX, layover, then LAX-ATL back on day two. Are you stating that we should have a separate 777 "domestic" category just for those trips?
2. The pilots who were on the 7ER in 07-08 were usually assigned those categories as newhires--that could only have happened if those positions went unfilled on an AE. That actually happened, but will most likely never happen again. AND, that all happened at a time when the company was vastly increasing flying to Europe (pre economic meltdown) and hadn't stop flying to several Middle East markets (JFK-AMM, JFK-CAI) prior to the "Arab Spring."
Bottom line is that any new hire in 07 who got the 7ER bid, and was able to fly to international destinations, was part of a very unique one-time only set of circumstances--just like guys in their second year with the company were flying Delta Express captain (and holding a line) in 1998.
I don't resent any of it and am actually happy for anyone who was able to hold Kiev in year two. I just don't want to hear complaints from said guys as if their early "success" was somehow owed them, and any lack of ability to continue that at this point in time is something of a conspiracy.
1. The "sleeper cell" observation is just completely irrelevant. Delta--and every other airline in history--has always had the ability to assign flying any way they want. Even today the 777, which is 95% ultra-long-haul flying, has two day trips that fly ATL-LAX, layover, then LAX-ATL back on day two. Are you stating that we should have a separate 777 "domestic" category just for those trips?
2. The pilots who were on the 7ER in 07-08 were usually assigned those categories as newhires--that could only have happened if those positions went unfilled on an AE. That actually happened, but will most likely never happen again. AND, that all happened at a time when the company was vastly increasing flying to Europe (pre economic meltdown) and hadn't stop flying to several Middle East markets (JFK-AMM, JFK-CAI) prior to the "Arab Spring."
Bottom line is that any new hire in 07 who got the 7ER bid, and was able to fly to international destinations, was part of a very unique one-time only set of circumstances--just like guys in their second year with the company were flying Delta Express captain (and holding a line) in 1998.
I don't resent any of it and am actually happy for anyone who was able to hold Kiev in year two. I just don't want to hear complaints from said guys as if their early "success" was somehow owed them, and any lack of ability to continue that at this point in time is something of a conspiracy.
Back in summer of 2000, while we were still negotiating what later became C2K (finally signed in the summer of 2001) I was jumpseating out of MCO to ATL on an L10-11. At the time, I was a ATL MD-11 F/O.
So I get into a jumpseat, and along comes another Delta Pilot for the second jumpseat. He's an old fart, and a Capt. also in uniform. I figure he's got to be an ER Capt. or someone, also commuting to ATL. So after we get above 10,000' he starts asking me where I'm going, what I'm doing, etc. I tell him I'm going to London on the Mighty Dog.
He says, "Well, I just hope they FIX that 737 Express Pay Rate in this contract, $100 hr. for a Captain is just not right, YOU make $50 an hour more than I do, you're just and F/O, and I'm a Captain!"
I said, "I agree, and that's why I voted NO in 1996." and then I asked him what he's flying.
He said Express Captain. (he was 'old' because he was a 45yr. old retired LT. Col. as a new hire)
I asked him how many years he had at Delta, he said 3.
I then tapped the engineer on the shoulder and asked him how many years he had, he said 5, then I asked the F/O how many years, he said 10.
I then looked at this moron, and I said, "Yup, we'd better fix it, and as soon as we do, I'm bidding it, and so is he, and him too, (pointing at the engineer and F/O) and YOU will be displaced to NYC 727 engineer, where you BELONG!"
I guess it had never occurred to this nit-wit that the ONLY reason he was a 3 year 737 Captain, was because of the EXPRESS PAY RATES!
Last edited by Timbo; 06-04-2013 at 08:57 AM.
06-04-2013, 08:33 AM
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I know there were rare circumstances that led to the flying seen by 7ER new hires in 07 and 08. However, here are some reference points as to where those folks would be had they chosen the other airlines that were hiring. Real data points...not generalizations:
CAL: 2006 hire upgrading from WB FO to 73 Capt right now.
SWA: 2006-7 hires holding T-W-Th lines every week, holidays off, making $160k/yr
ATN: On their way to SWA, see above
UPS: WB reserve or NB line, making $180k/yr
FDX: Can't even talk about it!
UAL: Furloughed, now recalled with about the same career expectations as DAL.
I'm still grateful to be at DAL. I'm just tired of ManageDALPAment telling us how much progress we've made as a pilot group when I see 80% of the progress as backwards.
CAL: 2006 hire upgrading from WB FO to 73 Capt right now.
SWA: 2006-7 hires holding T-W-Th lines every week, holidays off, making $160k/yr
ATN: On their way to SWA, see above
UPS: WB reserve or NB line, making $180k/yr
FDX: Can't even talk about it!
UAL: Furloughed, now recalled with about the same career expectations as DAL.
I'm still grateful to be at DAL. I'm just tired of ManageDALPAment telling us how much progress we've made as a pilot group when I see 80% of the progress as backwards.
06-04-2013, 08:34 AM
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For Delta it may have been an outlier but compared to other major carriers like CAL and FedEx getting heavies as new hires and flying then internationally was or is normal.
The guy who soloed my made 764 Captain at CAL in his late 30s of a ten year upgrade. Well 764, 762, 753, 752 Captain. I know FedEx a year or less ago was putting guys in the right seat of the MD11 right off the bat. I know because the 18 year or so MD11 LCA was telling me about it. Delta guys would call you a liar for suggesting that was happening and possibly suffer a minor stroke that anyone would have such an opportunity given how long it took them to get to the right seat of the ER.
I know I know, it was out of seniority that I bid for an got ATL 7ER B when I barely had gotten off of new hire OE in JFK. Wait that's not out of senior... ah whatever.
The real crazy thing was new hire FO becoming a ATL 767 AQFO or whatever that called. That's nuts. That's crazy talk.
The guy who soloed my made 764 Captain at CAL in his late 30s of a ten year upgrade. Well 764, 762, 753, 752 Captain. I know FedEx a year or less ago was putting guys in the right seat of the MD11 right off the bat. I know because the 18 year or so MD11 LCA was telling me about it. Delta guys would call you a liar for suggesting that was happening and possibly suffer a minor stroke that anyone would have such an opportunity given how long it took them to get to the right seat of the ER.
I know I know, it was out of seniority that I bid for an got ATL 7ER B when I barely had gotten off of new hire OE in JFK. Wait that's not out of senior... ah whatever.
The real crazy thing was new hire FO becoming a ATL 767 AQFO or whatever that called. That's nuts. That's crazy talk.
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