Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-23-2013, 07:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2011
Posts: 114
05-23-2013, 07:56 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
How? When we allow other pilot groups to do deals with our management for Delta flying and our former Chair / President works out his own scope deals via the grievance process and our NC does deals without guidance? Sad to say, but I see nearly no indication that the Delta MEC is engaged in anything other than providing local services. Strategic planning? For what? Moak does whatever he pleases. We read about the result of ALPA negotiations with Delta Management in the news or other airlines' web boards. Then we gripe and moan at our Reps for something they did not know about and had no part in.
Legally can Delta negotiate with any pilot group or entity it wants to as long as it does not violate our PWA? Not whether it's right or wrong morally, since that does not come in to play in business, but legally.
Can ALPA policy supersede the law?
Does ALPA have the obligation to tell one pilot group what another is doing with their management team when telling them may ultimately lead to their demise(No PWA violation)?
Should there be something done that is not just purely a political stunt that you have not thought of?
All questions you should ask yourself. They are questions I have asked myself and will be asking of the again if the opportunity presents itself.
Don't get me wrong. I very much appreciate the hard work of our Reps. Individually our Reps are terrific to a man. But collectively they can't even deal with the fact that they've been locked out of the room, marginalized and become irrelevant to the representation of Delta pilots as a body.
Without our MEC acting to correct national's power grab we might as well not even have a MEC. On the tough issues which are specific to Delta pilots WE HAVE BEEN PURPOSELY SILENT. Our MEC has got to find it's representational willpower and take on the subversion of our union's democratic process. The number one strategic issue facing our union right now is the inability of our MEC to do it's job as a political body.
I commend you individually for standing up and encourage others to do so. We members of our union need Representatives who assert the best interests of the Delta pilots without concern for majorities or the self serving opinions of professional admin. Union work is difficult when there are shots fired across the horseshoe. Often the toughest work is most rewarding.
Until we take control of our union, a strategic planning meeting has little ability to change the trajectory of anything.
An open letter condemning the authorization of other pilot groups to do deals with management without the knowledge and consent of Delta pilots with the promise to initiate a recall if such a gross abrogation of the Delta MEC's autonomy is ever repeated is a start. Who cares if the resolution does not pass (better if it did of course). Even a failing resolution would identify where our Reps stand individually and individually action could be taken to correct the problem that renders our MEC ineffective.
Until we take control of our union, a strategic planning meeting has little ability to change the trajectory of anything.
An open letter condemning the authorization of other pilot groups to do deals with management without the knowledge and consent of Delta pilots with the promise to initiate a recall if such a gross abrogation of the Delta MEC's autonomy is ever repeated is a start. Who cares if the resolution does not pass (better if it did of course). Even a failing resolution would identify where our Reps stand individually and individually action could be taken to correct the problem that renders our MEC ineffective.
As you know, many sit and watch but do not engage in many of the issues even though they have an opinion. This is dangerous since results are generally driven by input. If only one is talking and the rest are watching, nothing happens. You may be the only loud voice in a quiet hall. In that instance, many will see it as one man crying fire. More voices on every issue, not just this one are not just favored but required for the process to work.
05-23-2013, 08:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
I don't know, that looks like a quote written at 9pm by someone who had had a 4:30am van. The grammar probably has Denny Crane taking a dozen Tums. 
But in a sense look at Herb or even Woolman days about who the pilots at SWA and Delta meant, and look at where we are now.
Our corporate purpose now is the customers, not a bad thing at all obviously, but now those Delta customers who bought their tickets from Delta are served not only by Delta pilots, but Pinnacle pilots, AF/KLM pilots, Alaska pilots, Skywest pilots, Shuttle America pilots, ExpressJet pilots, Skyteam pilots, GoJet pilots... sadly I feel like I'm leaving someone out here.
But who are we anymore?
But in a sense look at Herb or even Woolman days about who the pilots at SWA and Delta meant, and look at where we are now.
Our corporate purpose now is the customers, not a bad thing at all obviously, but now those Delta customers who bought their tickets from Delta are served not only by Delta pilots, but Pinnacle pilots, AF/KLM pilots, Alaska pilots, Skywest pilots, Shuttle America pilots, ExpressJet pilots, Skyteam pilots, GoJet pilots... sadly I feel like I'm leaving someone out here.
But who are we anymore?
As for the other part of your post, I cannot disagree with it but I can ask a question: Won't the total amount of flying these other carriers do for us actually shrink by the end of this contract.........?
Denny
05-23-2013, 08:43 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
fwiw, I'm actually getting truck driving web ads on this forum. If it was 1985 and Goose hadn't hit that canopy when his F-15 went out of control, began spinning, and then began spinning out to sea, I'd have given him this website:
Forward Air Landing Page
and
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and
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and
http://drivewti.com/remark/?gclid=CJ...FYLm7AodqSYA1w
and
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and
05-23-2013, 09:15 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
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Bill Roberts has testified on the record that he is an attorney for ALPA National. I raised the issue of an apparent conflict of interest when he provided our Reps opinions on the propriety of actions taken by ALPA National. His response seriously undermines the power of the Delta MEC and simply has to be rebutted if our MEC is to continue as the body which represents the concerns of the Delta pilots. Further, every MEC in ALPA is potentially effected in a similar fashion. In private communications I asked my Reps to ask the question, hoping that Mr. Roberts would realize the conflict and provide proper direction. Mr. Roberts took offense to my question. Interestingly Mr. Roberts' response to the question was that he could not have violated the rules of the Virginia Bar because he was not a member.
You try to spin this as a false allegation when in fact it was a logical extrapolation of Mr. Roberts' own statement. As soon as the error was discovered a retraction was posted.
Attorneys are provided wide latitude when advocating for their clients, particularly when the potential adverse party, whether it is the TWA MEC or the Delta MEC, are assumed to be professionals who have a much greater understanding than the common man. In this case the Delta MEC sees no conflict and officially, they speak for you and I. A complaint could be made to the DC Bar, but what is the point? The issue is the inaction of the Delta MEC. Mr. Roberts advocated effectively and prevented political action his client did not want. That's just doing his job.
As for being polite and diplomatic you are correct. This isn't personal in any way. You and I agree action is needed to protect the legitimacy of the Delta MEC as a representative body. I'm not shooting inside the horseshoe for fun. There is an issue here that needs to be fixed.
It can't be fixed by trying to win a beauty contest with charm. Every single Rep who's talked to me agrees something just wasn't right with ALPA cutting a deal without the knowledge or participation of the Delta pilots; every one. Admin strongly disagrees. Everyone wants a consensus before real action is taken ... maybe condemnation is too strong a reaction for some. Like you, I hope agreement is reached in some sort of a policy clarification. That clarification needs to reverse the opinion of Mr. Roberts and reestablish the legitimacy of the Delta MEC.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 05-23-2013 at 09:58 AM.
05-23-2013, 09:48 AM
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05-23-2013, 10:01 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Under the 1936 Amendment to the Railway Labor Act, Delta has to negotiate with the certified representative of the class or craft of employees. ALPA is our certified representative and who Delta must negotiate with.No. But inasmuch as ALPA's President authorizes bargaining subject to an Executive Board, ALPA policy controlsAbsolutely! The threat (no matter how empty) makes it more imperative to recognize MEC autonomy and allow pilot groups to work together for the betterment of our profession. Management double dealing behind the backs of Master Executive Counsels is how whipsaw gets started and how a race to the bottom is sustained. ALPA should not have tolerated a management demand to negotiate behind the backs of the Delta pilots. Further it can generally be assumed the party the secret is kept from is the party being harmed. Management wants to do different deals with different groups of pilots in the employ of Delta Air Lines. Such action should be lighting up warnings all over the place. It would have been simple enough to comply with the ALPA CBL & Admin Manual then let the Delta MEC choose not to be involved. Why did management insist on a breach of our governing documents and why did ALPA comply? (I really dunno, maybe Mr. Robert's opinion really is policy ... if so our MEC is nothing more to Delta than Pinnacle's, Expressjets or Comair's was)How is asking Reps to be accountable a political stunt? Did not every Rep in our Council promise greater accountability and improved transparency? IMHO doing nothing should result in a recall. Other pilots have a right to their opinion (and vote). Reps need to choose ... and it is a very basic choice ... "Do you consent to the authorization of other pilot groups to negotiate agreements with the management of Delta Air Lines?"No, our MEC communicated it's findings that there was no violation ...You know this has been accomplished and to their credit, they spent a lot of time on the matter. My Reps have the source documents outlined and highlighted for their review.Your standards are higher than this. A response is regretfully appropriate.
Bill Roberts has testified on the record that he is an attorney for ALPA National. I raised the issue of an apparent conflict of interest when he provided our Reps opinions on the propriety of actions taken by ALPA National. His response seriously undermines the power of the Delta MEC and simply has to be rebutted if our MEC is to continue as the body which represents the concerns of the Delta pilots. Further, every MEC in ALPA is potentially effected in a similar fashion. In private communications I asked my Reps to ask the question, hoping that Mr. Roberts would realize the conflict and provide proper direction. Mr. Roberts took offense to my question. Interestingly Mr. Roberts' response to the question was that he could not have violated the rules of the Virginia Bar because he was not a member.
You try to spin this as a false allegation when in fact it was a logical extrapolation of Mr. Roberts' own statement. As soon as the error was discovered a retraction was posted.
Attorneys are provided wide latitude when advocating for their clients, particularly when the potential adverse party, whether it is the TWA MEC or the Delta MEC, are assumed to be professionals who have a much greater understanding than the common man. In this case the Delta MEC sees no conflict and officially, they speak for you and I. A complaint could be made to the DC Bar, but what is the point? The issue is the inaction of the Delta MEC. Mr. Roberts advocated effectively and prevented political action his client did not want. That's just doing his job.
As for being polite and diplomatic you are correct. This isn't personal in any way. You and I agree action is needed to protect the legitimacy of the Delta MEC as a representative body. I'm not shooting inside the horseshoe for fun. There is an issue here that needs to be fixed.
It can't be fixed by trying to win a beauty contest with charm. Every single Rep who's talked to me agrees something just wasn't right with ALPA cutting a deal without the knowledge or participation of the Delta pilots; every one. Admin strongly disagrees. Everyone wants a consensus before real action is taken ... maybe condemnation is too strong a reaction for some. Like you, I hope agreement is reached in some sort of a policy clarification. That clarification needs to reverse the opinion of Mr. Roberts and reestablish the legitimacy of the Delta MEC.
Bill Roberts has testified on the record that he is an attorney for ALPA National. I raised the issue of an apparent conflict of interest when he provided our Reps opinions on the propriety of actions taken by ALPA National. His response seriously undermines the power of the Delta MEC and simply has to be rebutted if our MEC is to continue as the body which represents the concerns of the Delta pilots. Further, every MEC in ALPA is potentially effected in a similar fashion. In private communications I asked my Reps to ask the question, hoping that Mr. Roberts would realize the conflict and provide proper direction. Mr. Roberts took offense to my question. Interestingly Mr. Roberts' response to the question was that he could not have violated the rules of the Virginia Bar because he was not a member.
You try to spin this as a false allegation when in fact it was a logical extrapolation of Mr. Roberts' own statement. As soon as the error was discovered a retraction was posted.
Attorneys are provided wide latitude when advocating for their clients, particularly when the potential adverse party, whether it is the TWA MEC or the Delta MEC, are assumed to be professionals who have a much greater understanding than the common man. In this case the Delta MEC sees no conflict and officially, they speak for you and I. A complaint could be made to the DC Bar, but what is the point? The issue is the inaction of the Delta MEC. Mr. Roberts advocated effectively and prevented political action his client did not want. That's just doing his job.
As for being polite and diplomatic you are correct. This isn't personal in any way. You and I agree action is needed to protect the legitimacy of the Delta MEC as a representative body. I'm not shooting inside the horseshoe for fun. There is an issue here that needs to be fixed.
It can't be fixed by trying to win a beauty contest with charm. Every single Rep who's talked to me agrees something just wasn't right with ALPA cutting a deal without the knowledge or participation of the Delta pilots; every one. Admin strongly disagrees. Everyone wants a consensus before real action is taken ... maybe condemnation is too strong a reaction for some. Like you, I hope agreement is reached in some sort of a policy clarification. That clarification needs to reverse the opinion of Mr. Roberts and reestablish the legitimacy of the Delta MEC.
Good to know your position, and even better if all your reps are aware of it too.
05-23-2013, 10:10 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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05-23-2013, 10:47 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
05-23-2013, 11:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2011
Posts: 114
You are correct. Moral of the story, in the summer months don't use the "if needed to fly" selection. I guess this selection only applies if you are the only guy on the list and you match the trip in days available. Quite useless if you ask me.
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