Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-11-2013, 11:52 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Ron;
I have no doubt about your convictions being genuine.
We are either organized labor or we are not. If the TRUE goal of DALPA was to raise the bar for us:
-The negotiators would have been directed to walk away from the table during this past negotiation.
-The strike mobilization committee would have been put to work.
-The policy manual would have been followed and reps would have been allowed to actually give direction.
I am required, because of agency shop, to pay dues to an organization that does not completely look after my interests. I am not proposing that there is a better CBA out there either, just stating a fact as I see it. I support the PAC and am personally pleased with several of their recent victories. I feel that our DALPA admin is in this for their own agendas and not for the best interests of the line pilot. Unfortunately they continue to have the power.
I don't know if I'm some weird outlier either. I am informed, but IMO, we are either grossly outgunned or we have acquiesced all of our negotiation ability due to outsourcing, maybe both.
I have no doubt about your convictions being genuine.
We are either organized labor or we are not. If the TRUE goal of DALPA was to raise the bar for us:
-The negotiators would have been directed to walk away from the table during this past negotiation.
-The strike mobilization committee would have been put to work.
-The policy manual would have been followed and reps would have been allowed to actually give direction.
I am required, because of agency shop, to pay dues to an organization that does not completely look after my interests. I am not proposing that there is a better CBA out there either, just stating a fact as I see it. I support the PAC and am personally pleased with several of their recent victories. I feel that our DALPA admin is in this for their own agendas and not for the best interests of the line pilot. Unfortunately they continue to have the power.
I don't know if I'm some weird outlier either. I am informed, but IMO, we are either grossly outgunned or we have acquiesced all of our negotiation ability due to outsourcing, maybe both.
We would likely be fighting a public relations campaign where Delta says they offered a substantial raise to the pilots who kicked it back and now want to take away the dividends the investors want and money need to make the company profitable. The virgin and stock slices of the pie was going with or without us. We would still be stuck with the remaining pie which isn't really much different than it was last year. Leftover pie and crust.
I don't see any way that we'd ever be unified enough with the independent union boyz still running around the 4th floor trying to get a vote going and a way to get any of the pie that Delta already planned on spending that we could not stop even if we wanted to.
In the section 6 we'd be in now how do you figure you could have stopped either of those or gotten any of the money from them?
Last edited by hitimefurl; 05-11-2013 at 11:54 AM. Reason: spulling
05-11-2013, 11:55 AM
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05-11-2013, 12:00 PM
Back on TDY
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Ron;
I have no doubt about your convictions being genuine.
We are either organized labor or we are not. If the TRUE goal of DALPA was to raise the bar for us:
-The negotiators would have been directed to walk away from the table during this past negotiation.
-The strike mobilization committee would have been put to work.
-The policy manual would have been followed and reps would have been allowed to actually give direction.
I am required, because of agency shop, to pay dues to an organization that does not completely look after my interests. I am not proposing that there is a better CBA out there either, just stating a fact as I see it. I support the PAC and am personally pleased with several of their recent victories. I feel that our DALPA admin is in this for their own agendas and not for the best interests of the line pilot. Unfortunately they continue to have the power.
I don't know if I'm some weird outlier either. I am informed, but IMO, we are either grossly outgunned or we have acquiesced all of our negotiation ability due to outsourcing, maybe both.
I have no doubt about your convictions being genuine.
We are either organized labor or we are not. If the TRUE goal of DALPA was to raise the bar for us:
-The negotiators would have been directed to walk away from the table during this past negotiation.
-The strike mobilization committee would have been put to work.
-The policy manual would have been followed and reps would have been allowed to actually give direction.
I am required, because of agency shop, to pay dues to an organization that does not completely look after my interests. I am not proposing that there is a better CBA out there either, just stating a fact as I see it. I support the PAC and am personally pleased with several of their recent victories. I feel that our DALPA admin is in this for their own agendas and not for the best interests of the line pilot. Unfortunately they continue to have the power.
I don't know if I'm some weird outlier either. I am informed, but IMO, we are either grossly outgunned or we have acquiesced all of our negotiation ability due to outsourcing, maybe both.
To the pilots who state: "Well you show me the strategy that should have been used and maybe I'll get excited..." You must remember what we DID do. We took management's first offer before Section 6 negotiations even began. We were told management said: "This is a time critical deal..." "We're not able to give any more than this..." "The next offer will be much worse..." Our union leadership took the deal, THEN tried to convince our reps after the fact. When that didn't work, our union leadership went on an extremely one-sided sales/scare campaign dictated to them by the words of management. Many members hated the deal, but voted YES because of how badly mismanaged our union leadership was, and that our union leadership really didn't even know how to extract more from management...or didn't want to.
That was the "strategy" used last time. If you're really questioning what if anything should be done next time, start with actually demanding more than what the company SAYS they're willing to give. Second by PROVING to management that the days of being manipulated by fear tactics created by them and dutifully communicated by their partners in DALPA are over.
If we can't or won't do this, expect nothing but a career of disappointment.
Carl
05-11-2013, 12:06 PM
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Well, that's the problem. ALPA told DAL pilots how big the overall pie was and how much of a slice we could get. Now what we are seeing is that the pie is much larger than we were told and other slices are being cut much larger than before. Some new slices are even being cut. So, some pilots are left to wonder did ALPA seriously misjudge the pie size, or due partially to constructive engagement intentionally misrepresent the pie and slice size to the membership?
I'm saying either option is an F.
I expect this from the Co, but not my union.
I'm saying either option is an F.
I expect this from the Co, but not my union.
Carl
05-11-2013, 12:13 PM
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Posts: 12,544
05-11-2013, 12:17 PM
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I disagree. Paying a dividend gets Delta one step closer to being investment grade. Mutual funds and other institutional investors will now look at DAL as a possible investment precisely because they pay a dividend. How many of you though about buying DAL when this was announced? I know I thought about buying some more while it is still relatively cheap. ($ wise, not necessarily $/earnings wise)
As far as stock buybacks go, both Buffett and Cramer like them, but I have yet to be convinced as to their actual benefit to the corporation. If DAL was going to buy back stock, I would think they would have wanted to do it when the price were down in the mid teens...
As far as stock buybacks go, both Buffett and Cramer like them, but I have yet to be convinced as to their actual benefit to the corporation. If DAL was going to buy back stock, I would think they would have wanted to do it when the price were down in the mid teens...
Again, we appear to have such an identity crisis. Are we organized labor or aren't we? We look embarrassing and pathetic when we try to be managers by using their lingo. It's bad enough our "union" leadership does it, let's not do that ourselves.
Carl
05-11-2013, 12:24 PM
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Listened to a discussion about this last night in the ATL lounge. Premise of the discussion was that if we had voted no or the negotiators were sent back and we went into a protracted section 6 what then would have happened. If I understand everything correctly (eavesdropping) we could have been in a situation where we would still have no contract today; the virgin atlantic deal would still have happened as Delta don't need our permission, the stock buyback and dividend would still have happened as Delta don't need our permission and the announced it last year before the amendable date.
We would likely be fighting a public relations campaign where Delta says they offered a substantial raise to the pilots who kicked it back and now want to take away the dividends the investors want and money need to make the company profitable. The virgin and stock slices of the pie was going with or without us. We would still be stuck with the remaining pie which isn't really much different than it was last year. Leftover pie and crust.
I don't see any way that we'd ever be unified enough with the independent union boyz still running around the 4th floor trying to get a vote going and a way to get any of the pie that Delta already planned on spending that we could not stop even if we wanted to.
In the section 6 we'd be in now how do you figure you could have stopped either of those or gotten any of the money from them?
We would likely be fighting a public relations campaign where Delta says they offered a substantial raise to the pilots who kicked it back and now want to take away the dividends the investors want and money need to make the company profitable. The virgin and stock slices of the pie was going with or without us. We would still be stuck with the remaining pie which isn't really much different than it was last year. Leftover pie and crust.
I don't see any way that we'd ever be unified enough with the independent union boyz still running around the 4th floor trying to get a vote going and a way to get any of the pie that Delta already planned on spending that we could not stop even if we wanted to.
In the section 6 we'd be in now how do you figure you could have stopped either of those or gotten any of the money from them?
You've just stated the case for being JetBlue. No union, no union dues, and accept only what the company was willing to give you in the first place. If that's what we all want then fine. Just stop this BS about us being a union.
Carl
05-11-2013, 12:25 PM
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Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 405
We need to stop pretending to be budding managers and investment gurus. When DAL stock becomes "investment grade" should be immaterial to organized labor. The bottom 2/3rds of our pilots are not even making what an airline pilot should make based on the world market price for airline pilot labor. When EVERY Delta pilot is making at least the world market rate, then we MIGHT consider helping management get their stock to investment grade.
Again, we appear to have such an identity crisis. Are we organized labor or aren't we? We look embarrassing and pathetic when we try to be managers by using their lingo. It's bad enough our "union" leadership does it, let's not do that ourselves.
Carl
Again, we appear to have such an identity crisis. Are we organized labor or aren't we? We look embarrassing and pathetic when we try to be managers by using their lingo. It's bad enough our "union" leadership does it, let's not do that ourselves.
Carl
05-11-2013, 01:13 PM
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Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 335
Actually, I think he just stated the case that the concensus in the lounge was that the union boyz acted prudently. As for JBLU, sure no union and no union dues, but also $30 less/hour for a 12 year captain, fewer benefits, fewer work rules, no grievance process, at will worker, yada, yada, ya... no thanks, I'll keep my union.
05-11-2013, 01:22 PM
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Position: A330
Posts: 216
CD training
I keep having my quarterly CD training tell me there is a flash player error.... then it proceeds to shut down the program. Has anyone else had this problem?
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