Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-20-2009, 11:47 PM
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 233
Junior DAL-South guy here and this is what bugs me....I came to Delta for their West Coast bases and it sucks to see a DAL-North guy itching for LAX. Completely in their right to do so based on seniority but it doesn't stop from hurting.....especially when they wouldn't of have had that option without the merger. What did we get out of the deal? DTW and MSP.....SWEET!
08-21-2009, 01:29 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
Now it's my understanding that some of these guys who took the PRIP deal will be kept around until sometime next year. Given that the APA system will be gone by then, and that we'll be under a single certificate as well, what would prevent me from snagging one of those vacated positions?
My intent isn't to infer that change happens, and you need to deal with it. Instead, I'm saying that while some of you may have been screwed by the timing of this change, some of you were helped by it, also. At least this let fNWA guys benefit from the attrition on their side. This MOU may not be perfect, but I think you're better off with it than without it.
My intent isn't to infer that change happens, and you need to deal with it. Instead, I'm saying that while some of you may have been screwed by the timing of this change, some of you were helped by it, also. At least this let fNWA guys benefit from the attrition on their side. This MOU may not be perfect, but I think you're better off with it than without it.
The former NW PWA, which was to govern the last APA per TWG guidlines defines staffing differently than the DAL PWA, and would of created vacancies that should have been filled in seniority order. On a straight linear basis, I would agree it appears no vacancies will be available with ANC base closure.
However, our contract anticipates that the Co. will be tempted to hold extras that displace into a position. We wrote that into the definition of vacancy in Section 24.A. If the position has 100 bodies in it at the beginning of the process and 10 pilots displace into the position, common sense would say that 10 pilots will be displaced off the bottom. If the Co. makes a decision to hold those 10 pilots as extras and ends up at 110 positions instead of 100, that meets our contractual definition of 10 vacancies that should have been awarded to the senior bidder.
This is where the seniority of senior pilots on the pref-up list could have been abrogated. The senior pilot preferencing the -400 has a 2 digit number, while the junior falling off the -200 has a high 3 digit number in the 9's due to the Roberts award from the Republic merger. Roberts was dead as of last year, and former Republic pilots were starting to bid DOH senioirty. This was the last APA prior to SOC to get into a position they were locked off of for 20 years. Under the MOU portion that modified the award process this would have gone to the displacing pilot off the -200 if there were vacancies defined as above, essentially extending (and yes resurrecting) the effects of Roberts.
It's NOT a minor deal, nor is it a "tempest in a teapot" as some would so condescendingly refer to it.
08-21-2009, 04:38 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
The MOU consists of several parts. Extending the conversion timeline to allow for retirements is good. Allowing PRIP vancancies to go to respective pre-merger pilots is good. Changing the TWG agreed to method of adhering to the APA process for order and sequence of filling vacancies was a freebie given the Co. that has nothing to do with previous parts of the MOU, and allowed them to award fewer positions and train less pilots. It's like DAL said we don't want any quids and we gave them some any ways, not from ill intent, but because the players involved in the MOU thought they knew better and did not need to consult anyone from DAL-N or the Reps on how it worked or unintended consequences. Dohhhhhhh
The former NW PWA, which was to govern the last APA per TWG guidlines defines staffing differently than the DAL PWA, and would of created vacancies that should have been filled in seniority order. On a straight linear basis, I would agree it appears no vacancies will be available with ANC base closure.
However, our contract anticipates that the Co. will be tempted to hold extras that displace into a position. We wrote that into the definition of vacancy in Section 24.A. If the position has 100 bodies in it at the beginning of the process and 10 pilots displace into the position, common sense would say that 10 pilots will be displaced off the bottom. If the Co. makes a decision to hold those 10 pilots as extras and ends up at 110 positions instead of 100, that meets our contractual definition of 10 vacancies that should have been awarded to the senior bidder.
This is where the seniority of senior pilots on the pref-up list could have been abrogated. The senior pilot preferencing the -400 has a 2 digit number, while the junior falling off the -200 has a high 3 digit number in the 9's due to the Roberts award from the Republic merger. Roberts was dead as of last year, and former Republic pilots were starting to bid DOH senioirty. This was the last APA prior to SOC to get into a position they were locked off of for 20 years. Under the MOU portion that modified the award process this would have gone to the displacing pilot off the -200 if there were vacancies defined as above, essentially extending (and yes resurrecting) the effects of Roberts.
It's NOT a minor deal, nor is it a "tempest in a teapot" as some would so condescendingly refer to it.
The former NW PWA, which was to govern the last APA per TWG guidlines defines staffing differently than the DAL PWA, and would of created vacancies that should have been filled in seniority order. On a straight linear basis, I would agree it appears no vacancies will be available with ANC base closure.
However, our contract anticipates that the Co. will be tempted to hold extras that displace into a position. We wrote that into the definition of vacancy in Section 24.A. If the position has 100 bodies in it at the beginning of the process and 10 pilots displace into the position, common sense would say that 10 pilots will be displaced off the bottom. If the Co. makes a decision to hold those 10 pilots as extras and ends up at 110 positions instead of 100, that meets our contractual definition of 10 vacancies that should have been awarded to the senior bidder.
This is where the seniority of senior pilots on the pref-up list could have been abrogated. The senior pilot preferencing the -400 has a 2 digit number, while the junior falling off the -200 has a high 3 digit number in the 9's due to the Roberts award from the Republic merger. Roberts was dead as of last year, and former Republic pilots were starting to bid DOH senioirty. This was the last APA prior to SOC to get into a position they were locked off of for 20 years. Under the MOU portion that modified the award process this would have gone to the displacing pilot off the -200 if there were vacancies defined as above, essentially extending (and yes resurrecting) the effects of Roberts.
It's NOT a minor deal, nor is it a "tempest in a teapot" as some would so condescendingly refer to it.
The tempest is the constant drama that goes on. Can't business be conducted without all of the excessive emotion? First the MOU language comes out and there is a giant furball because guys pref cards are wrong. Okay so then they delay the APA to let guys redo their cards. Guess what, a whole new group of guys is up in arms. How can anyone win?
It would also help if some of the agitators would read their damn contract and figure out what it says before they go off half-cocked. Before you dump on Plan A, you should know what Plan B is.
08-21-2009, 04:39 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Junior DAL-South guy here and this is what bugs me....I came to Delta for their West Coast bases and it sucks to see a DAL-North guy itching for LAX. Completely in their right to do so based on seniority but it doesn't stop from hurting.....especially when they wouldn't of have had that option without the merger. What did we get out of the deal? DTW and MSP.....SWEET!
08-21-2009, 05:06 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
What you fail to mention, is that the company also has the option to go with a very small APA and then move into the Advanced Entitlement process. If MOU 7 is dropped that is probably what they will do. While all the Green Book guys are looking for a category flush, the company isn't. They will use all methods available to them including the AE process. So while you paint it as an unasked for concession, your solution could make things worse for DAL-N. Oh well.
The tempest is the constant drama that goes on. Can't business be conducted without all of the excessive emotion? First the MOU language comes out and there is a giant furball because guys pref cards are wrong. Okay so then they delay the APA to let guys redo their cards. Guess what, a whole new group of guys is up in arms. How can anyone win?
It would also help if some of the agitators would read their damn contract and figure out what it says before they go off half-cocked. Before you dump on Plan A, you should know what Plan B is.
The tempest is the constant drama that goes on. Can't business be conducted without all of the excessive emotion? First the MOU language comes out and there is a giant furball because guys pref cards are wrong. Okay so then they delay the APA to let guys redo their cards. Guess what, a whole new group of guys is up in arms. How can anyone win?
It would also help if some of the agitators would read their damn contract and figure out what it says before they go off half-cocked. Before you dump on Plan A, you should know what Plan B is.
This all came to light days before the award was to be run.The N reps elevated the issue to get it resolved. Many S reps agreed.
Nothing was emotional - it was a legit problem that needed to be resolved. First part was to acknowledge you have a problem.That proved problematic. The continued minimizing of the issue and condescending tone by some on the MEC made a solution more difficult. Yes there was no plan B, but A was clearly unworkable for reasons previously discussed.
So who's up in arms? The pilots that would have enjoyed a windfall at the expense of seniority or the members of the MEC that have to eat crow?
Last edited by Fly4hire; 08-21-2009 at 05:42 AM.
08-21-2009, 05:09 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Chente,
Unfortunately Delta's history of pilot domiciles on the west coast is not good if you want to live in the west and not commute.
After DAL bought Western they were then the largest carrier at LAX. DAL operated a 737 shuttle operation between LAX and SFO. They operated many north-south routes and flew to several destinations in Mexico.
The recession in the early nineties hit California harder than other parts of the US and that's when DAL started moving everything east. Later on they closed pilot domiciles in PDX and Seattle as they abandoned routes to Asia out of PDX, and flights to Alaska out of SEA. But hey, now they had something like ten mainline flights a day from ATL to GSP!
I'm a big fan of Glen Hauenstein, and RA as well. I believe they will position jets (and pilots) where they will make money for the company.
I don't believe they are wedded to the Atlanta-centric mentality of past managements.
Good luck in your quest to live in-base out west. I think it will happen, hopefully soon!
Unfortunately Delta's history of pilot domiciles on the west coast is not good if you want to live in the west and not commute.
After DAL bought Western they were then the largest carrier at LAX. DAL operated a 737 shuttle operation between LAX and SFO. They operated many north-south routes and flew to several destinations in Mexico.
The recession in the early nineties hit California harder than other parts of the US and that's when DAL started moving everything east. Later on they closed pilot domiciles in PDX and Seattle as they abandoned routes to Asia out of PDX, and flights to Alaska out of SEA. But hey, now they had something like ten mainline flights a day from ATL to GSP!
I'm a big fan of Glen Hauenstein, and RA as well. I believe they will position jets (and pilots) where they will make money for the company.
I don't believe they are wedded to the Atlanta-centric mentality of past managements.
Good luck in your quest to live in-base out west. I think it will happen, hopefully soon!
08-21-2009, 05:12 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
08-21-2009, 05:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
Now it's my understanding that some of these guys who took the PRIP deal will be kept around until sometime next year. Given that the APA system will be gone by then, and that we'll be under a single certificate as well, what would prevent me from snagging one of those vacated positions?
My intent isn't to infer that change happens, and you need to deal with it. Instead, I'm saying that while some of you may have been screwed by the timing of this change, some of you were helped by it, also. At least this let fNWA guys benefit from the attrition on their side. This MOU may not be perfect, but I think you're better off with it than without it.
My intent isn't to infer that change happens, and you need to deal with it. Instead, I'm saying that while some of you may have been screwed by the timing of this change, some of you were helped by it, also. At least this let fNWA guys benefit from the attrition on their side. This MOU may not be perfect, but I think you're better off with it than without it.
08-21-2009, 05:13 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
SKW is skirting it because their other WO airline EV is taking it in the shorts to protect SKW.
08-21-2009, 05:36 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Off topic.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 08-21-2009 at 06:19 AM.
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