Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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05-02-2013, 07:58 AM

#129521

forgot to bid

veut gagner à la loterie

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: Light Chop

Posts: 23,286

Quote:

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

Of course, I'm lacking in the real world test flight experience that Carl has.

88 guys do not lack real world test flight experience, just the structure to which Carl would've done it under.

05-02-2013, 08:01 AM

#129522

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by JobHopper

A procedure such as Carl's might work in a "steady state" condition.

There was nothing "steady state" about my experience during this test. It was in a real airplane and when the CG was shifted to beyond the aft limit, it was violent. Our pitch attitude maxed out at over 40 degrees before the rolling action began to lower the nose. And that was with me holding the yoke to the forward stop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JobHopper

However, if the cargo did come loose it was now free floating in the back. Who is to say it didn't all come crashing back forward as the nose fell through the horizon?

That's a really good point. In our experiment, the CG remained beyond the aft limit and when the recovery was complete, you're left with a statically unstable airplane in the pitch axis. If the load shifted back to normal when the pitch attitude goes negative, that would certainly provide for some short term regaining of pitch control.

Carl

05-02-2013, 08:02 AM

#129523

forgot to bid

veut gagner à la loterie

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: Light Chop

Posts: 23,286

Off the wall question. On 4-man crews do both of the Captains log PIC time for the entire length of the flight?

Yes I know, nobody logs time anymore. This is actually oriented to corporate flying.

05-02-2013, 08:07 AM

#129524

Check Essential

Works Every Weekend

Joined APC: Dec 2007

Position: 737 ATL

Posts: 3,506

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeineLodge

Can someone refresh me on the lineholder Greenslip trigger?

I seem to be remembering ALV or 75 hours, whichever is lower? Is that correct?

Also, I think we're allowed to use up to 5 hours of bank to reach the trigger? Still correct?

Thanks

Its Section 23.U.1

U. Green Slip (GS), Green Slip with Conflict (GSWC), Inverse Assignment (IA) and Inverse
11 Assignment With Conflict (IAWC)

—Pay and Credit/Pay and No Credit
12
13 1. GS
14 a. A regular pilot who has flown a GS rotation:
15 1) will receive single pay and credit for the portion of his GS rotation that brings him
16 to the lesser of:
17 a) the ALV, or
18 b) 75 hours, and
19 2) will receive double pay, no credit for the portion of his GS rotation that exceeds
20 the lesser of:
21 a) the ALV, or
22 b) 75 hours.
23 3) may use up to five hours of his bank, prior to accounting for the GS rotation, to
24 bring his projection to the lesser of:
25 a) the ALV, or
26 b) 75 hours.
27 Note: A pilot’s vacation and CQ training in the bid period will be considered as pay
28 and credit for purposes of determining if he has met the ALV or 75-hour threshold in

29 such bid period (and not for any other purpose).

05-02-2013, 08:07 AM

#129525

Carl Spackler

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Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by orvil

For those of you who might be interested, you should take a look at the UAL thread. "ALPA Taking Sides"

Looks like one of our own's consulting business might be in a little trouble. He might have to go back to flying the line full time.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ua...ing-sides.html

Agreed. I couldn't help but notice when I asked this very question of our former MEC administration official on this thread, he went to radio silence.

Carl

05-02-2013, 08:23 AM

#129526

Carl Spackler

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Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

Interesting discussion, all. It's my understanding with jet upset that in such low airspeeds the rudder needs to be used (but not aggressively, obviously) to assist with limited aileron effectiveness. While what Carl stated on the recovery is exactly what I though it would be (and what we should all come to understand about unloading the aircraft in upset recovery), I'm a bit surprised that he stated that the recovery was with no rudder input. Is the dutch roll that bad on a swept wing at that low speed with rudder input? That part goes contrary to what I've been taught (and experienced).

Of course, I'm lacking in the real world test flight experience that Carl has.

Thanks to all for their great input on this discussion!

Yes, at slow airspeeds, Dutch Roll can be even more critical because the yaw motion used to induce Dutch Roll results in one wing moving forward while the other wing is moving aft. At slow airspeeds, the wing that's moving aft will stall while the other wing is at or near L/D max. When that's happens, the roll rate becomes extremely fast until you unload the airplane.

At slow speeds (all the way up to stall), the ailerons give you all the roll rate you need for this recovery technique. Those few sim instructors at American who were advocating this technique came from the fighter world, specifically the F-4 which (I'm told) had a significant adverse yaw characteristic when ailerons were used at low speeds. This technique was wholly inappropriate for a swept wing airliner that has no adverse yaw issues, but is very vulnerable to Dutch Roll. That's why as far as I know, that technique has been completely discredited by the NTSB and the manufacturers.

Carl