Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-01-2013, 05:29 PM
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,197
cni187,
Just guessing from my 4,500 hours in the C-5, 12,000 hours of waiting to fly BTW, that opening the aft door complex was not an option, if faced with whatever happened to the B747 crew.
GF
C-5 Competition: the pilots complete a flight plan, engineers do a pre-flight, loads have a bake-off and maintenance does a jack job in record time.
Just guessing from my 4,500 hours in the C-5, 12,000 hours of waiting to fly BTW, that opening the aft door complex was not an option, if faced with whatever happened to the B747 crew.
GF
C-5 Competition: the pilots complete a flight plan, engineers do a pre-flight, loads have a bake-off and maintenance does a jack job in record time.
05-01-2013, 05:32 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
But even a C-5 would have been screwed.
No way to open the back end from upstairs.. takes the Loadmasters to pull ramp pins and then open the aft ramp & door from downstairs~
Motch
ex C-5 FE~
05-01-2013, 05:45 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Hey Slow,
I was an A300 LCA when American lost the A300 in Jamaica Bay. Rudder input did not go away completely as a result of that accident. Rather, it was relegated to a hail-mary status in a high alpha/ low speed event where pitch authority could not get the nose down, and aileron/spoiler input was insufficient to roll the aircraft.....rudder was carefully applied to get the nose below the horizon.....and no rudder reversal input.........is that your recollection ??
Regards,
BG
I was an A300 LCA when American lost the A300 in Jamaica Bay. Rudder input did not go away completely as a result of that accident. Rather, it was relegated to a hail-mary status in a high alpha/ low speed event where pitch authority could not get the nose down, and aileron/spoiler input was insufficient to roll the aircraft.....rudder was carefully applied to get the nose below the horizon.....and no rudder reversal input.........is that your recollection ??
Regards,
BG
05-01-2013, 06:02 PM
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
The Wing CC over there is a good bud of mine. It'll be interesting to hear what he has to say about it after all the dust settles. I'd imagine he'd be a little too busy to take my call right now.
05-01-2013, 06:46 PM
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,536
...At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full...
Of course they also could have been wallowing in a stall the whole way down.
Either way, the stuff of nightmares...
05-01-2013, 06:55 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: 88B
Posts: 29
The video almost looks like they tried. One wing drops and the nose falls through the horizon, unfortunately they were on the deck before they could get the pitch back to level.
Of course they also could have been wallowing in a stall the whole way down.
Either way, the stuff of nightmares...
Of course they also could have been wallowing in a stall the whole way down.
Either way, the stuff of nightmares...
4x
05-01-2013, 07:04 PM
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
The video almost looks like they tried. One wing drops and the nose falls through the horizon, unfortunately they were on the deck before they could get the pitch back to level.
Of course they also could have been wallowing in a stall the whole way down.
Either way, the stuff of nightmares...
Of course they also could have been wallowing in a stall the whole way down.
Either way, the stuff of nightmares...
05-01-2013, 07:14 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
05-01-2013, 07:21 PM
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,536
Jury's out until they crack into the FDR and make some chilling cartoons for the rest of us to learn from.
05-01-2013, 07:31 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Incredibly sad. We all need to try to learn anything we can from the loss of these lives, and the following is meant for that purpose:
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
The video as horrendous as it is to see does something an NTSB report cannot do and that's get everyone's attention. Normally in a videoed accident it's "uh, pilot error, I would never have..." but this one just hits home and your heart goes out to those seven guys and their families.
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