Columbia

Timbo

Actually, JNB-ATL is (usually) 2 hours longer than ATL-JNB, as it's into the wind. (see the OMG DAL 201 thread below)

The key word in the FAR Duty Limit has always been "Scheduled". As long as you were not originally Scheduled to exceed the FAR's, you are good to continue. If in the event of a delay after sign in, either weather or MX, and now you go over the FAR max, you were still ok to continue. The company obviously has to build the rotations in compliance with the FAR's, but when the crap hits the fan, you can go over the FAR's.

So...in the new regs, did they remove the word (or concept) of "Scheduled" duty time, vs. Actual duty time? I remember when the Whithlow letter came out, that was the intent, to look back and see how many hours you'd been on duty and not allow you to take off, if by the time you landed, you would exceed the max duty day.

And, yes, they do have a lot of trouble covering the late DXB and JNB trips with short call reserves, if they are MX delayed, because the guys on short call are considered on duty (or not on rest) and then have a long duty day ahead of them. That's why at 2am, they get covered by green slips more often than by short calls. The short call guys have been on call too long to show up at 1am, and be on duty for another 16+ hours.

gloopy

Interesting. Not only could that drive increased staffing for that, it could also stop the push to get the extra block hour with 2/3 crews in all but the highest cycle short haul hub flying.

Or they could just outsource to foreign airlines and get around it.

sailingfun

The new rule is going to have a lot of different effects on various parts of our contract. Some will favor us and some will favor the company. Some pilots will like a specific change and other pilots will hate it. Not much new there.
The company will be able to eliminate the current practice of double crewing some turns mostly Caribbean in some markets. That costs us jobs and reduces credit time, both benefits to the company. How much they can do that depends on the risk they are willing to take since the 9 hours is a hard number. Schedule a turn for 8 40 and have the crew go 20 minutes over on the outbound leg and they can't return. The company will then have to bring the aircraft back to Miami or somewhere else and attempt to recrew the flight or cancel the return. The ability to fly up to 9 hours on a normal domestic rotation will also have to have a buffer applied. The company will look at the data and decide what they are comfortable with. Getting a reserve crew to the aircraft in time to keep the operation on schedule if a crew goes over on a leg is not as easy as some think. I suspect they may continue to schedule to 8 hours and use a 1 hour buffer. I can't see them going under a 30 minute buffer and that will be tight.
On the international side the contract still required a augmented crew on any ocean crossing over 8 hours. The main effect of the new rule will probably be seeing the company putting a relief pilot on some current 2 man operations to protect the operation because of the hard limits. It also would ease assigning reserves to a trip. This is good for the pilots.

As far as manning there are so many aspects to the new rule that the actual effects are hard to predict. I think its going to take the company a year or two to get a handle on it. The company does not at this point plan in engaging the union in talks to modify the contract to the new FAR. They intend to operate under the current contract. They have felt that past mid contract talks have heavily favored the union in actual costs and they will take any hits the new rule creates.
I do find one forum aspect interesting. The forum represents itself as trying to understand various aspects of the contract, company, faa and how in the end they effect our jobs. The reality is however the forum refuses to acknowledge anything if they can't cast blame on someone for whatever they are discussing. The classic example of this is manning. Probably thousands of posts about how various company and union changes will effect manning but no one wants to discuss the real 800 lb gorilla.
The company is running a dramatically better airline. I recently had a interesting discussion on pilot hiring and other issues with someone reasonable in the know at the company. Reserve utilization is way down during normal ops and way down during Irops. Running a good airline causes a substantial reduction in pilot needs. I just flew a 4 day domestic trip that started with 3 minutes of credit. We ended the trip with 3 minutes of credit and flew every leg as scheduled. In the past there would have been numerous times we made money on a leg waiting for a gate ect.. We would have more then likely been rerouted once or twice or even 3 times. Reroutes generate huge amounts of credit and premium pay. They have been cut well over 50 percent. The company is even surprised at how large the reduction in total credit hours as been. That is one of the reason you see the current push on gate latency. They like what they are seeing and want more of it. Tie this into the new FAR's with hard limits and it becomes even more important to the company to run a good airline. 4 years ago the new rule would without a doubt have required a lot more pilots at Delta. With the operation we are running today the hard limits will have a much smaller impact and a greatly reduced need for additional pilots.
This forum does not discuss the effect running a good airline has on pilot needs for one simple reason. This is a forum about blame. Hard to blame the company or union for running a good airline so nothing to talk about! It is however at the moment a major factor in decisions on pilot hiring and the effect is far greater then any change in the contract or FAR's.

Bucking Bar

Crew rest station needs ... PLYWOOD!

Bucking Bar

Great post! You raise a very good consideration.

I doubt many pilots have thought about it that way.

But, I don't think this forum is a bunch of malicious finger pointers. As your post stated you talked to someone in the know. Mostly the folks here are line guys sharing a water cooler conversation. The question "why" typically follows "what." The answers might seem to be assigning blame.

Pilots work inside a unique paradox. They have a lot of responsibility, limited authority and very little actual flexibility, or control within prescribed procedures.

Columbia

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vprMatrix

I was suprised when I first read the FAA's clarification. As you point out there are some big changes in there for the airlines like not being able to change your duty in time if the inbound flight is running late. This could cause lot of porblems for international pilots as well as domestic pilots with long duty days if the inbound flights are significantly behind schedule like often happens during irops or with mtc.

Also, the fact that FAR117 considers any type of schedule check duty will require a big change to the way Delta operates. With our current PWA the required schedule check on your last day off now makes that a day of work and requires 10 hr rest period after the check. So even if you waited until 0001 to check your schedule on your first on call day you could not report until after 1001 due to the required rest.

This will also change the way the company has interpreted our requirement to check our schedule during our 24 hour rest period in 7 calendar days. Not only is the 24 hours being increased but they cannot require you to check you schedule any time during the rest so once you've started your rest period you cannot be assigned to a rotation immediately following your rest period.

There are a few things that are good/ok for the company in 117 but overall it is beneficial for the pilot group and will require a shift in the way airlines have conducted business. If you haven't already, everyone should read through the linked document above. This is the FAA's answers to questions from the industry on how they intend to interpret the new FARs starting in 9 months.

vpr

Wilbur Wright

I think FAR 117 will benefit us several ways. It will have a positive impact on our manning, it will level the competitive playing field by forcing many carriers to come up to what we already had in our contract and hopefully, it will cause DAL to reconsider the operational and economical benefits of Type 1 rest facilities on international aircraft.

Depending on your point of view I do think there is a downside. The increased rest requirements may mean more days at work.

Wilbur Wright

So will airlines start towing aircraft to the runway at airports with long taxi times?

In APA's third scenario, the airplane is towed to the holding spot and does not arrive to that spot on its own power. In that scenario, the time spent towing the airplane and the time that the airplane spends at the holding spot would not be flight time because that time occurs prior to when the aircraft first moves under its own power.