Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

They are statistically calculated.

If we are less latent, block times go down. And as you love to say, block hours are what bring pilot jobs.

So...what happens when block times go down?

Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL

I think you guys don't understand the old NWA system - you could never bid over the high time threshold to get 1.5X.

Originally Posted by Sink r8

I assume that we didn't have ACARS-generated times linked to the beacon in 1972.

The changes is in the actual triggers, not the theory. It doesn't matter what is being said, it matters what is being paid.

In my time, and particularly since the merger, we've gone from pilots controlling the time (through the beacon or the brakes), to the introduction of aircraft that operate on brakes, and modifications to existing PMDAL aircraft, depending on the ACRAS I believe. I've blocked in to gate 1 at LGA, where the IN time was based on the previous parking brake application (but it didn't show until the final setting of the brakes). So no credit for the tow-in, and a false IN time are created. There is an example for you.

Now I believe some airplanes will work on GPS (737-700?). I've never seen any data on how much of a move it takes to trigger a GPS OUT, but there are times when I believe we could get a clearance to push, immediately cancelled, and the GPS would never know. Another example for you.

So we've changed in that the Captain could previously account for the circumstances on the ground, and ensure that we had proper OUT/IN times, and now (s)he can't make that call.

Originally Posted by sailingfun

Sure he can. That is why we have a times monitor. In the situation you mention about the tow in however your incorrect. Your time will be right since its based on the last time the brakes are set prior to main door opening. After they tow you into the gate and you come to a stop you set the brake. When the main door is open the time is sent. No change from the past when you were supposed to turn the beacon off once at the gate.

Originally Posted by sailingfun

Ok, I agree with that however again what is the change that would be grieved. The contract is and always has been very specific on what block time is. The definition is first movement of the aircraft with intent to fly to the last movement of the aircraft on arrival. That is also the FAR definition of flight time.
Are you saying we should go before the arbitrator and explain that the pilots have been cheating the system because its easy and now the company is going to make cheating harder so we have been harmed?

Originally Posted by Sink r8

I've seen it happen with my own eyes. It did not show a time in the Flight Log when the brake was set to connect to the tug, then shut-down, but when we set the parking brake at the gate, and the door was opened, it displayed and sent out the previous time, about seven minutes earlier.

Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL

I think you guys don't understand the old NWA system - you could never bid over the high time threshold to get 1.5X. It was just a different way of allocating the premium flying that showed up in open time. The staffing formula was the staffing formula - there was never the ability to manipulate reserve levels to have more or less pilots in a category so that they could be picked up by high time swaps or pick ups. Of course we also had a more rigid position bidding system that did not allow under and over manning of a category and the resultant monthly APA - which also was more rigid in training requirements. The result of this system forced the company to be more responsible in their staffing. Of course the downside was the potential of furloughs, but those are self limiting due to cost just like they are now.

Sounds like the issue here is not whether it's 1.5 over 80 or GS, but the contractual flexibility the company has with actual manning within the staffing formula. Under the NWA system they would have been contractually required to hire to staff the 717 instead of the current AE shell game underway.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

Like sailing said, that's when you submit a correction to the times monitor.